All modern anchors with loop, based on the Bugel are the same in performance

[Montanan]

Sounds like the start of a Captains' gamble:

I will bet my anchor versus yours, and the loser raises this:

[SailingHarmonie]

If you have left the Bugel out of your story, I'd have ignored the whole thing. Because in my experience what you have to say is more or less right EXCEPT FOR THE BUGEL.

The Bugel was an amazing anchor invention. It was truly a genius break with anchor design. Better than what was available, and insanely cheap to make.

But I would put your 50kg Bugel up against a 50kg Rocna, or Mantus, or etc, etc. any day in any bottom.

I have a lot of experience with the Bugel. All of them made by Bugel in the 90s, no knockoffs. A lot. There are two things that set it apart from newer anchors.

First, the Small "Loop"
This is simple a 50kg Bugel has a smaller hoop that is far more likely to get fouled with grass or debris that newer anchor designs. Thats all there is to say about this.

Second, and bigger issue is: The very thick fluke.
One of the things that made the Bugel so cheap to make is the flat fluke. No bending, or other maching needed. Cut it to shape, weld on the shank, and you're done. Being flat, the fluke gains no strength from a shape. It has to be a LOT thicker to resist bending.

This means that a 50kg Bugel has a MUCH smaller surface area that an anchor with a more sophisticated shape and thinner (yet still stonger!) fluke. This is why the Bugel will always lose to the same size modern anchor. Anchors don't hold by weight, they hold by surface area engaged with the bottom. Smaller surface area==lower holding power. If you doubt this compare your 50kg Bugel to a 30kg Danforth pattern anchor in a straight pull contest in a mud bottom. Your Bugel will lose. To be fair, so would every other "loop" style anchor.

Most of my clients have boats that came from the factory equipped with Bugels. Despite the thicker fluke, every one of them that has seen extensive use has the tip of the anchor bent downward. It gets caught behind a rock, or in an especially dense bottom in a blow, it bends. Once bent, the setting geometry is destroyed.

Now on to your other thesis: Most anchor manufacturers undersize the anchor recommendations. There I agree with you completely. Here is a pretty extensive discussion about that: How to size an anchor

[Mike OReilly]

If you're saying a bigger anchor will generally hold better than a small one, then I'd generally agree. If you're saying all the loop-style anchors are similar enough to be interchangeable, I'd also agree, with some provisos.

From testing and anecdote and personal experience, it's pretty clear that some designs do better in some conditions, compared to others. So if you know what your anchoring conditions will always be, it's certainly possible to pick the best design for you. But if you anchor in a wide variety of conditions, an overall "best" becomes harder to identify.

Anchors hold by adhering to the substrate. Weight is a significant factor for initial positioning and setting, but once that is accomplished, weight becomes far less of a factor.

Larger fluke size, and a force vector that drives down, seems to me to be the main considerations. Weight is a proxy for size (given the same materials), which is why heavier is generally better. But it's mostly not the weight that is important for holding, it's fluke size, and shape.

Fluke shape are design factors. So some are better than others. But bigger is generally going to be better for holding -- generally.

However, we still need to live in the real world. We have to be able to manage our chosen anchors. So there is always an upper limit to what boat and crew can manage.

This gets to my general recommendation, which is to carry the largest good-quality anchor that boat and crew can reasonably manage. By reasonable, I mean one that can be deployed and retrieved without resorting to heroic efforts. And one that doesn't significantly negatively impact other aspects, like improper weight balance.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Yes! I found a 2-ton granite block held me in a hurricane, so that would be even better.

But does it fit your bow roller?

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by TPG

Gotta say I've been pretty happy with my Rocna with an all-chain rode. This is the 2nd boat that I've used this setup on and it works in just about all conditions. Have been anchoring up and down FL/GA and now am in the Bahamas.

40' cat with Roacna 25, have been tempted to go up to the 33 but just can't justify it based on the performance we've witnessed.

Same anchor all chain on 38' monohull same area. Works great. Only time I've drug is either due to my technique, or soupy mud bottom in 45 kt sustained (running out an extra 50' solved that problem).

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by TPG

40' cat with Roacna 25, have been tempted to go up to the 33 but just can't justify it based on the performance we've witnessed.

I hope you never anchor upwind of me with that boat and that small an anchor...

DO NOT resist the temptation to get a more suitable anchor, or you will be dragging along with the charter cats that all come with such laughably small anchors.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

I hope you never anchor upwind of me with that boat and that small an anchor...

DO NOT resist the temptation to get a more suitable anchor, or you will be dragging along with the charter cats that all come with such laughably small anchors.

Assuming he meant the 25kg Rocna (and not 25 lbs), I wouldn't say it's drastically too small, although I'd consider it bordering on undersized. I'd definitely be happier with the 33kg version on that boat.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Flame war...whats that...never mind

This test would show that the sizing is what's important not the design. we could even do it like this , instead of 50kg and 30kg we could test 40kg and 30kg, perhaps this is more representative... the results would be very interesting.



Or, do you think it would not be interesting pitting the best 30kg against the worst 40kg loop anchor.

I don't think anyone doubts that size is the _largest_ factor. Of course it is. But it is not the _only_ factor. And, the size of an anchor is limited. So you size the anchor to a size that is large enough and reasonable on the bow, and then look at other features to get the best anchor of that size.

And that is where you really see a difference. Modern anchor designs will reach their maximum hold at a lower scope. They will reset faster. They handle changing tides and the direction of pull better. If you have the heaviest anchor with the best holding, but when the tide changes it flips upside down and won't reset, your screwed.

I'm not sure a rollbar anchor came out on top, either, but I don't remember.

[David Mathis]

Better under what conditions? For cobble, a Delta seems to be the best but in soft mud they're about the least effective. The Danforth has proven to be highly effective in sand with a straight pull but if the wind shifts more than a few degrees, they aren't so good. We've never used any of the new roll bar anchors so no opinion is offered.


For a general purpose anchor, we use a 20k Bruce on our 43' boat. When the wind shifts 90 degrees, it goes deeper rather than pulling out. The Bruce, in the original condition, dragged on hard sand. It had considerable difficulty penetrating that bottom and released with a hard pull. To fix the problem,the leading edge was sharpened using an angle grinder and the top of the wing polished then sprayed with graphite paint to reduce the friction on the sand (like a lift/drag ratio on an aircraft wing). The problem was resolved and it penetrates quickly on an easy set. It penetrates much deeper and has never dragged. The only downside is it's sometimes hard to recover after storms.

[wrwakefield]

I don't have personal experience using a Bugel anchor [Buegel? ...or any other anchor with a roll bar- they don't fit our bow sprit...] but in 2022 I met some German cruisers provisioning at the same port as us.

They asked me if I knew of any machine shops in the area with a large hydraulic press.

I appended a photo I took demonstrating Harmonie's detailed feedback:

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

If you have left the Bugel out of your story, I'd have ignored the whole thing. Because in my experience what you have to say is more or less right EXCEPT FOR THE BUGEL.

The Bugel was an amazing anchor invention. It was truly a genius break with anchor design. Better than what was available, and insanely cheap to make.

...

Most of my clients have boats that came from the factory equipped with Bugels. Despite the thicker fluke, every one of them that has seen extensive use has the tip of the anchor bent downward. It gets caught behind a rock, or in an especially dense bottom in a blow, it bends. Once bent, the setting geometry is destroyed.

...

This example reminds us that all mechanical devices have their limits, but some materials and/or designs are stronger [more suitable?] than others for the same intended uses.

As to heavier anchors, I practice that strategy and have never regretted it. (22 ton cruising weight monohull ketch using a 99lb [45kg] Spade primary bower [mentioned for reference only] with 360ft of 5/16in G43 chain.) This set-up well suits our vessel when frequenting deeper anchorages of varying bottom types in our current NNE Pacific [and higher latitude seas] cruising grounds.

We all realize that ground tackle needs vary between boats [and crews], cruising areas [e.g., depth and bottom types] and probability [and severity] of inclement weather in the seasons we choose to cruise [year around for us...]

Just adding some fuel to the pyre...

Cheers, Bill

PS: Yes, the shank is bent as well...

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Fuss

That's right, It needs to be said. You can buy anyone of them, they are all the same in performance.
I've monitored this for years.
The main problem is having too smaller anchor for the conditions you might accidentally get in to.
Manufacturers would have you believe otherwise. The only thing the manufacturers have similar is their anchor sizing charts. They all will have you buy too smaller anchor.
28 ton monohull, you need 50-60kg.



So you don't believe me, then take the 30kg loop anchor that you think is the best. Then compare it to the 50kg loop anchor that you think is the worst.
the 30kg will never win. 50kg will outperform substantially.


I've seen enough modern loop anchors dragging, always the wrong size for the boat.



Get yourself the storm sized Bugel, its cheaper than the rest and does the job just the same when sized right.


(yes but mine is the best in the tests and it looks so good in stainless steel...yea yea.. we've heard it all before)

a. A troll, and ...

b. Laughing out loud.

[Fuss]

Sailingharmonie… a very good summary of the bugel
And you too Mr Wakefield.
The Wasi system, which is basically a Bugel, a wasi powerball and stainless chain does not bend as easily as the galvanised knockoffs.
The bending that Mr Wakefield shows is real for non stainless. None stainless bends shanks and also flukes as Sailingharmonie and Mr Wakefield wrote.
Maybe stainless Wasi bends too, but I did not see this.
But let’s not dwell on the Wasi Bugel…if we want it to be the inferior one then so be it…
We could also chose another…
I think this 30kg superior against 40kg inferior test would be very interesting

[wrwakefield]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Sailingharmonie… a very good summary of the bugel
And you too Mr Wakefield. Bill <grin>
The Wasi system, which is basically a Bugel, a wasi powerball and stainless chain does not bend as easily as the galvanised knockoffs.
The bending that Mr Wakefield shows is real for non stainless. None stainless bends shanks and also flukes as Sailingharmonie and Mr Wakefield wrote.
Maybe stainless Wasi bends too, but I did not see this.
But let’s not dwell on the Wasi Bugel…if we want it to be the inferior one then so be it…
We could also chose another…
I think this 30kg superior against 40kg inferior test would be very interesting

Thanks, Fuss.

Your feedback makes me realize I left out some important details to go with the bent anchor photo [for clarity]:

- The anchor in the photo I shared is stainless steel.

- The owners of the anchor told me it was a Bugel they acquired in Germany, so I assume it isn't a knock-off.

FWIW

Cheers, Bill

[Fuss]

Hmm, well, they would have a problem to straighten that, the fat fluke in stainless would not be easy.
But as I said, let’s not then dwell on the Bugel, shall we chose another to be the inferior one…

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Sos

Ah, but I have a Mantus which of course is the best

Ah, the Praying Mantus, the anchor that makes you pray every time you set it!

Just kidding. Those are very good anchors.

In addition to performing well, they are the one "new design" anchor I know of that lets you buy a spare, unbolt it & store it compactly in the bilge or other out-of-the-way area. The disassembly feature makes it my number one choice as a deep-storage back up anchor for those times when you are forced to cut away your primary and you are out in the middle of nowhere.

It's one of about 5 anchors that I can feel good about having as a primary. There are several good anchors out there these days.