Cockpit Mounted Main Sheet with no Traveler

[Don C L]

Where is EigenVector when you need him?

[Sailor_Grant]

Here is a better picture of the setup.

As you can see, most of the forces are pulling straight against the A-Frame / triangle setup which pulls against the fiberglass cockpit thru hull reenforced bolts. So don’t have to worry too much about leverage etc.

Anyone know what this setup is called?

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Sailor_Grant

Anyone know what this setup is called?

A problem waiting to happen.

Sorry to sound like an old bore but I have personally seen some staggering shock loads on boat rigging when things have gone wrong.

A recent fatality on a NZ boat was caused by the traveller breaking free and killing a crew member.

I can picture that mess slapping around and doing the same.

And no, the forces are not straight up. Imagine running directly down wind with the boom perpendicular to the boat then gybing without warning, possibly due to a violent wind gust. The force will be practically perpendicular to what amounts to a long lever. Very good chance it will be ripped clean out of the fibreglass and you’ll have a triangle of stainless steel poles flapping around on the end of a long rope.


I get why they’ve done it that way. A traveller in the cockpit is a PITA and if you are not racing it is hard to justify. If that’s the goal then use the twin sheet method documented earlier. That’s a brilliant setup which gives superb control of sail shape. Noticeably, it was also favoured by a number of the GGR racers in their setups.

[HellBentSailing]

It is not the best solution, but it has been done before. Having the main sheet connected to or on a post attached to the pedestal was a popular solution on trailer sailors such as the Macgregor 26 and Hunter Edge. However, the loads on these hybrid boat rigs is much lower than those on a full keelboat and they were designed with this in mind. A double main sheet is a fantastic idea although it can be less intuitive than a single one. If you do not go that route I would suggest at least mounting it on a much shorter double post (like seat height or lower) and making sure there is a considerable amount of reinforcement done on the underside of the cockpit sole to spread the load. Otherwise, it mig be possible to convert the boat to mid-boom sheeting with a bridge-mounted main sheet traveler above and forwards of the companionway hatch. A Catalina 30 in my marina (we have like 7 of them) has this solution, although I cannot speak to its effectiveness. Either way, the current solution might be fine for casual sailing in light-medium air, but in heavy winds you really don't want to be worrying about whether your main sheet will rip out of the deck and injure someone.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Sailor_Grant

Here is a better picture of the setup.

As you can see, most of the forces are pulling straight against the A-Frame / triangle setup which pulls against the fiberglass cockpit thru hull reenforced bolts. So don’t have to worry too much about leverage etc.

Anyone know what this setup is called?

Well... for a Catalina 30's forces it LOOKS like it may be ok. But, more importantly, what is that weird headdress the skipper is wearing??

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by GILow

A problem waiting to happen.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I get why they’ve done it that way. A traveller in the cockpit is a PITA and if you are not racing it is hard to justify. If that’s the goal then use the twin sheet method documented earlier. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My understanding is that ther wheel was retrofitted, since the engine control panel is on the vertical face of the port cockpit seat, which is where it would be for a tiller operation. IIRC, the tiller C30s had the mainsheet led aft to a traveler above the rudderstock. Couldn't keep it back there and stand behind the wheel.



It's an incomplete fix of a standard C30 retrofit to a wheel.


That mainsheet thing is a hazard.

[SaylorMade]

In general, make sure that your weakest link, is where the main sheet is connected to the boom. Should always be so in any case.
Consider it as a fuse.

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by Don C L

But, more importantly, what is that weird headdress the skipper is wearing??

Looks like blackface. Cultural misappropriation, nicht wahr?

A poor copy of: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-...w-2016/7858882

[JOHNMARDALL]

Your installation creates two potential problems:
1. Is the connection of the lower mainsheet block to the boat strong enough to withstand the maximum load? As others have said, a load probably arising from an accidental jibe. It looks as though the connection is onto the steering pedestal, and if so, I suggest replacing it with either a conventional traveller track, located behind the helm station, immediately forward of the helm station or on the cabin top for a mid-boom mainsheet if the mast position allows it, or for lower cost a simple bridle in any of those locations.
2. Poor control of the boom to mast angle, with consequent deficiencies in the shape of the mainsail. This can be partially offset by the installation of a substantial boom vang tackle with the bitter end led back to the cockpit for convenient and frequent adjustment.


I hope this helps,

John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Boat Equipment

[meirriba]

You may look at the newboats of the First (racer/cruiser) from Beneteau. The mainsheet is anchored to a single point in the middle of the cockpit. You set the exact point of the mainsail using rigid vang and mainsheet.

[grantmc]

I have a similar setup. Boat has sailed perfectly and won plenty of can races over the last 15 years. Sometimes simplicity works; even if the herd doesn't agree.

Originally Posted by GILow

A problem waiting to happen.
A recent fatality on a NZ boat was caused by the traveller breaking free and killing a crew member.

Can you substantiate this please. No knowledge of such a tragedy here in NZ and I follow the sailing news pretty carefully. Thanks

[grantmc]

Just by pure chance I've come across, on a recent post a photo of a dual sheet system. This is actually a boat that someone has posted for sale here in the forum.

I'm NOT advocating this system, but I'd read the the suggestions about it in earlier posts.

[mikebnz]

Originally Posted by grantmc

I have a similar setup. Boat has sailed perfectly and won plenty of can races over the last 15 years. Sometimes simplicity works; even if the herd doesn't agree.





Can you substantiate this please. No knowledge of such a tragedy here in NZ and I follow the sailing news pretty carefully. Thanks

It was the Platiino. Here’s the report:

https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/comme...eport-2016.pdf

[grantmc]

Originally Posted by mikebnz

It was the Platiino. Here’s the report:

https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/comme...eport-2016.pdf

Thanks heaps for that Mike, very much appreciated.

Just to correct the original poster's statement. The conclusion of the report wasn't that the 'traveller broke free'. In fact the conclusion of the report stated: "The design and installation of Platino’s mainsheet traveler arrangement appears to have been satisfactory and exceeded the minimum requirements recommended. "
The failure was the gybe preventer's setup combined with the incredibly heavy boom (678 kgs including sail), wind and sea state and of course the crash gybe (the traveller remained fast). And very very sadly, like most emergencies this set off a tragic train of events.

In respect to my own boat, to which I referred earlier: the mainsheet is affixed to the floor of the cockpit and behind the fixing is a serious backing board that takes, and spreads the load.

My point was that there's no rule that forces all boats to have a traveller and that on my boat the arrangement works very well.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by grantmc

Just to correct the original poster's statement. The conclusion of the report wasn't that the 'traveller broke free'. In fact the conclusion of the report stated: "The design and installation of Platino’s mainsheet traveler arrangement appears to have been satisfactory and exceeded the minimum requirements recommended. "
The failure was the gybe preventer's setup combined with the incredibly heavy boom (678 kgs including sail), wind and sea state and of course the crash gybe (the traveller remained fast). And very very sadly, like most emergencies this set off a tragic train of events.

Crikey mate, that's a bunch of semantics and pretty selective quoting.

Sure, the preventer was the first thing to fail, and it was in a discussion of preventer setups that I first learned of the article here on CF. At the end of the day the preventer failed and THEN, to quote directly from the article:

"The traveler was thought by the Skipper to have failed on the second instance of the boom swinging from starboard to port. It is possible that damage to the components accumulated over multiple shock loading events. The complete failure of Platino’s mainsheet traveler arrangement left the boom able to swing freely until it hit the shrouds on either side of the mast. The mainsheet and traveler car, with other associated hardware, remained connected to the outboard end of the boom and the crew later described as acting like a wrecking ball. The out of control boom and associated hardware quickly caused serious damage to the rear of the yacht and resulted in difficulty in regaining control. It presented a very real
danger to the crew which severely limited the options available to them. Platino’s crew were never able to restrain the boom which eventually led to total failure of the rig. The failure of the mainsheet traveler dramatically reduced the crew’s ability to regain control of the yacht."

Now, I thought the crew member had been killed by the traveller, but the report states:

"At that point, rigging associated with the boom struck the crewmember, throwing him out of the cockpit to the port side deck. The crewmember sustained severe head injuries, most likely killing him instantly. The skipper stated she believed the injuries were directly caused by being struck by the mainsheet. It is also possible that parts of the broken preventer were involved or that he was propelled into other equipment"

OK, so it was not the traveller that killed the crew member, at least it is not explicitly stated as such, but the same logic applies.

My whole point to the OP was that I felt a similar gybe situation could cause that mounting to fail. Yes, for the gybe to occur the preventer (if used) has to fail, but then they do, even properly set preventers.

I have nothing against the idea of a single point of mounting for the mainsheet, and I have been tempted myself to remove my traveller from the aft deck from time to time, but I stand by the assertion that the length and construction of that setup is poorly thought out and risks recreating the same situation as that on the Platino.

And sure, the boom on the platino was crazy heavy, 558kg plus 120kg of sail. But the preventer setup there was correctly designed for loads of 4 tons vertically and one ton laterally.

Now the Cal 30 does not have, to the best of knowledge, a 558 kg boom or 120 kg sail, but I am equally sure that setup will not withstand much more than maybe 200 kg laterally. Force loads generated in dynamic systems are result of velocity and mass, but velocity is SQUARED so the lower mass of the Cal's boom and sail have less ameliorating effect than expected.

Anyway, we all have our opinions, and that's why we come to CF, to share them and inform them. If it were my boat, I'd find another way of mounting the mainsheet. The OP, of course, is free to make their own interpretation of the opinions expressed here.