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Old 22-08-2023, 12:55   #331
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I cope with doing these projects in the heat by using lots of high volume forced air ventilation. In a suit this doesnít work but you can ventilate the whole suit unless people see that and you create a panic
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Old 22-08-2023, 12:59   #332
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I ran into a similar problem with refrigerators and learned how to fix them as well. Richard Kollman taught me everything. That was 20 years ago. Was sad to see he died this month. They are surprisingly simple. But you need a good set of gauges.
Oh no, I didnít know that! He was good, wish I had hired him 21 years ago instead of the jerk who took off with my money!
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Old 22-08-2023, 13:03   #333
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I cope with doing these projects in the heat by using lots of high volume forced air ventilation. In a suit this doesnít work but you can ventilate the whole suit unless people see that and you create a panic
You can catch a glimpse of me ventilating the whole suit in this YouTube.

Ha ha.

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Old 22-08-2023, 13:05   #334
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Oh no, I didnít know that! He was good, wish I had hired him 21 years ago instead of the jerk who took off with my money!
Yeah. It does suck. He was the only person out there teaching regular folks how to do refrigeration and air-conditioning work. I had my own set of gauges and everything. Fixed my own plus others. Plus cars. Once R134A became legal, for the average user, we were able to fix a lot of things.
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Old 22-08-2023, 13:26   #335
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Yeah. It does suck. He was the only person out there teaching regular folks how to do refrigeration and air-conditioning work. I had my own set of gauges and everything. Fixed my own plus others. Plus cars. Once R134A became legal, for the average user, we were able to fix a lot of things.
I think I wasnít on the forum yet so I didnít know Richard. I used the, now elusive, refrigeration book from Nigel Calder which was also excellent. I calculated a spillover system through an insulated separation wall following his directions and after the build the temperature was within one degree Celsius of the math which was amazing.
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Old 22-08-2023, 13:56   #336
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I think I wasnít on the forum yet so I didnít know Richard. I used the, now elusive, refrigeration book from Nigel Calder which was also excellent. I calculated a spillover system through an insulated separation wall following his directions and after the build the temperature was within one degree Celsius of the math which was amazing.

Yes, at first you think itís a black art or something but it really isnít. Very empirical.

I bought Richardís book, but I think it succumbed to mold in a leaky land storage. Situation. I lost a lot of things I was keeping from my old boats while building the new one.

Somehow Skipper Bobís ICW bridges and anchorages made it. Not so for the Richard Kollman book
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Old 22-08-2023, 16:45   #337
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Torso size access holes cut.

Suited up better than a NASA clean room.

So far no ill effects. Fingers crossed.

Full tyvek suit with hood, full face forced air respirator, taped gloves to suit. Ankles showed a bit in odd positions dragging all that plus power tools plus a vacuum hose into the anchor locker with me.

But I’m all cleaned up and done and so far (knock on wood) no mistakes that exposed me. So yay!!

I’d love to show the holes, but as you can imagine, they suck. Not good cuts wearing all that and working inside an anchor locker.
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Old 23-08-2023, 03:24   #338
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Dyneema is great because it doesnít fail suddenly like stainless steel: you will see the splice deforming where the stretch makes the stitching do itís damage.

On the other hand, you may not realize this, but when you use the Brummel lock, you donít need the stitchingÖ at all. And there is no way the Brummel affects anything with constructional stretch, it will not split/deform strands let alone cut them. The Brummel does not weaken the splice is any practical measurement. Itís theoretical and only when a Dyneema wizard does the non-Brummel splice with perfect stitching.

You seem to think the Brummel lock is difficult and I have to admit that for something where you only have access to one end of the rope, where you have to turn the braid inside out and back, I remember being hesitant the first time I did that as well, but for this end to end splice it is the easiest thing because you have both ends right together. The instructions are easy to follow and tests have proven the Brummel 100% effective against the splice coming apart.
What is being missed here is that you CANNOT make a brummel when splicing two ends of the same piece of line into each other to make a loop. It is topologically impossible. The idiotic workaround of unlaying and entire bury and re-braiding it is one of the dumbest and most unnecessary things ever conceived.
Lockstitching doesn't have to be huge or complicated--its only purpose is to keep the splice from shaking apart when not under load. I lockstitch loosely with stretchy polyester twine so that when the splice is loaded, the stitching doesn't distort the fibers. If making a loop like Chotu's imagining, it can be pre-stressed with a winch and a post to get the splice nice and tight, and then lockstitched once it's pretty stable.

Oh, and if we're talking about the silly "Grog Sling" splice, this is NOT an acceptable way to join two ends of a line: since each tail goes into its own standing part instead of the opposite one, you're just relying on a tortured crossover to take the full strain. Dear me, it's worse than unlaying and re-braiding!
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Old 23-08-2023, 03:29   #339
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Also, benz does promote Brummel instead of stitching in other postsÖ just matters which way is against what was posted. Note how Seaworthy explain the function of the stitching in the linked post below.

And no, itís not about how it feels or looks as some claim Every step and technique is for creating a stronger splice and testing done by many incl. forum members have showed exactly that. Tapering is important because it was proven that stress risers caused by lack of or wrong tapering is where the splice breaks if there is no weaker point.

For most applications, the weak point should be a tight loop around a pin, shackle or inside a knot. If these points exist but the splice breaks at the taper then it wasnít good.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3278256
Sorry, just saw this and had to address: there is a place for brummels, and I use them very often, but not in making loops, and not when ultimate strength is desired. It's not just curmudgeonliness as you suggest, it's simply that every thing has its proper use.
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Old 23-08-2023, 05:19   #340
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I had to look the grog sling up.

Here’s an excerpt from the animated knots website:

Long Term Alternative: For a Sling which would be better trusted to remain secure over long periods with repeated use we would recommend either the Brion Toss re-braided Brummel technique or the use of simple long buried ends with stitching.

https://www.animatedknots.com/grog-sling-knot
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Old 23-08-2023, 05:40   #341
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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You can catch a glimpse of me ventilating the whole suit in this YouTube.



Ha ha.





Wait your a female musician ?
I would never have guessed
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Old 23-08-2023, 05:44   #342
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Also, I found an earlier discussion on Brummel vs stitching that got more traction than this one one is getting:


https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ma-265168.html
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Old 23-08-2023, 05:45   #343
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Wait your a female musician ?
I would never have guessed
If I were her, i would have just bought a Gunboat. Lol
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Old 23-08-2023, 05:48   #344
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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What is being missed here is that you CANNOT make a brummel when splicing two ends of the same piece of line into each other to make a loop. It is topologically impossible. The idiotic workaround of unlaying and entire bury and re-braiding it is one of the dumbest and most unnecessary things ever conceived.
Lockstitching doesn't have to be huge or complicated--its only purpose is to keep the splice from shaking apart when not under load. I lockstitch loosely with stretchy polyester twine so that when the splice is loaded, the stitching doesn't distort the fibers. If making a loop like Chotu's imagining, it can be pre-stressed with a winch and a post to get the splice nice and tight, and then lockstitched once it's pretty stable.

Oh, and if we're talking about the silly "Grog Sling" splice, this is NOT an acceptable way to join two ends of a line: since each tail goes into its own standing part instead of the opposite one, you're just relying on a tortured crossover to take the full strain. Dear me, it's worse than unlaying and re-braiding!
Ben, I posted a link showing how itís done. No, it isnít a Brummel splice, but it is a Brummel type lock that is more than enough for the application of Chotu.

Then you calling Brion Tossís method of rebraiding idiotic is a step too far on this forum, even with Brion being passed away. Let it suffice to say that I take Brionís instructions over yours and so will everyone else. You are misguided because you saw someone you donít like do this and assumed he came up with the idea.
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Old 23-08-2023, 05:48   #345
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I have to admit, due to the difficulty of re-braiding, I think I’m back to stitching. It will go much faster for a novice I think.

Also, I have to do 4 of these under pressure while the crane is lingering. Speed will be helpful.

Finally, since I’ll have a pre-tensioned rig (15%?), I wouldn’t even actually need the stitching or Brummel in theory. But I’ll stitch it anyway.

These are the conclusions I have arrived at. Assuming I learned everything correctly.

I’m assuming I can do the splice and then stitch it later after it stretches. Yes?

It will be under 2000lbs of pressure (I think. Still have to review this aspect more) at all times. Then when sailing, it will be anywhere between 2000lbs and 14,000 lbs pressure. Divided by the number of “legs” of the loops of course.

So I don’t think I will be completing my constructional stretch until I take it sailing also. Once it is stretched out enough, then I would stitch. Yes?

Or would the 2000 pound pre-tensioning stretch be enough and not worry about the further stretch?
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