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Old 21-08-2023, 10:08   #316
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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That looks good!

Does everyone else feel that thatís appropriate? Multiple loops around in a circle, tied together with the end to end a splice shown here in this link?

I really donít want to lose the rig so I really want to get this part right. Iím also going to practice this quite a bit so it comes out nicely.
There is no question. The Brummel lock theoretically derates the strength slightly but this isnít observed in tests. The tapering is the important part. I recommend to taper one strand at a time and to also taper each strand by cutting them diagonally. This is hard with a knife but easy with sharp scissors.

I use special Dyneema scissors that stay sharp: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017PUY1SE
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Old 21-08-2023, 23:03   #317
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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That looks good!



Does everyone else feel that thatís appropriate? Multiple loops around in a circle, tied together with the end to end a splice shown here in this link?



I really donít want to lose the rig so I really want to get this part right. Iím also going to practice this quite a bit so it comes out nicely.

Yes, it works. Remember that each pass of the loop only sees a proportion of the total load, so an end for end splice (which is rated nearly as strong as an unspliced line) will not be the weak point. Tight radius and the resulting uneven loading is the biggest problem, but thatís why you use enough passes for a loop to avoid anything close to half of breaking strength of whatever youíre securing (eg, 2 passes of 1000kg line has 4000kg BS, then 4 passes will have 8000kg (less a small percentage for uneven loading as anything with more than two passes will not have evenly loaded strands).

Note that when making a loop with multiple passes, you only need to make the multiple passes first if youíre incorporating a cover. If no cover just make one big loop and fold it over for the number of passes you need (but only 2, 4, or 6, not 3 or 5; for those you have to make the passes then the splice).

With standing rigging you want to be around 15-20% of breaking strength for the static load.
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Old 22-08-2023, 03:01   #318
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

OK. For once on the forum nobody has an objection to something. Wow. This is the way it will go then. Thanks for the input!
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Old 22-08-2023, 03:17   #319
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
That looks good!

Does everyone else feel that thatís appropriate? Multiple loops around in a circle, tied together with the end to end a splice shown here in this link?

I really donít want to lose the rig so I really want to get this part right. Iím also going to practice this quite a bit so it comes out nicely.
The Atlantic Braid instructions are adequate, though a little more complicated than necessary with the double taper business. If you're splicing a loop, it's not only topologically impossible to use a brummel, it's stupid, since it detracts from the ultimate strength if the splice.

I make covered loops for a living; I make hundreds of them; I make them nearly every day. Not one professional in the industry tries to use a brummel in an end-for end splice. It's a foolish affectation, and it's not where a brummel shines.
Just make your turns, up to five (beyond that, just use a bigger line), splice end-for end with a 3-fid bury, taper beginning halfway along the bury, and lockstitch the crossover. Done.
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Old 22-08-2023, 04:22   #320
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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The Atlantic Braid instructions are adequate, though a little more complicated than necessary with the double taper business. If you're splicing a loop, it's not only topologically impossible to use a brummel, it's stupid, since it detracts from the ultimate strength if the splice.

I make covered loops for a living; I make hundreds of them; I make them nearly every day. Not one professional in the industry tries to use a brummel in an end-for end splice. It's a foolish affectation, and it's not where a brummel shines.
Just make your turns, up to five (beyond that, just use a bigger line), splice end-for end with a 3-fid bury, taper beginning halfway along the bury, and lockstitch the crossover. Done.
Interesting. This is what I had first imagined before I looked at the techniques and listened to the various advice here on the forum and online.

It seems like just a simple finger trap with some stitching through it would hold really well. Same concept as the constrictor line stoppers I am using on the running rigging.

This is exactly what I was hoping for. A little bit of debate. There is no way one answer on this forum can stand without someone pointing some flaws or inadequacy out. I was a bit worried ha ha

So looking at going this way, are there any objections?

I sure like the simplicity and uninterrupted fibers of this approach
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Old 22-08-2023, 04:28   #321
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I do have a question.

With a 3 fid bury, it seems like (to an inexperienced person) that there might be some major constructional stretch to deal with.

Will this affect the lock stitch in a negative way as it stretches out?

With the 6mm Dyneema, It’s a 15 inch crossover.

I’m thinking the turnbuckles should have no problem dealing with that. I can’t see a 15 inch crossover stretching out much more than 3-4 inches hopefully.
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Old 22-08-2023, 08:10   #322
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Well yes I object to stitching instead of the Brummel. I wouldnít have recommended the Brummel instead of stitching otherwise.

The thing is, when you are very experienced then stitching may outperform a Brummel lock so that info is correct. But even though I do a lot of rope work (no joke), stitching correctly is very hard. The problem is that incorrectly stitching results in serious trouble, while the Brummel lock is very easy is to get for even someone doing it for the first time. I mean, 6 strands one side, 6 the other and stick the line through and you do that twice. With a needle and thread you must do it dozens of times and the needle wants to go through the strands themselves which is what causes trouble.

So yes, if you think stitching is simpler go right ahead. You already found the first problems with it which is constructional stretch. Maybe a simple Brummel lock?
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Old 22-08-2023, 09:00   #323
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I am confused and stuck. That’s actually perfect. It means we are getting to the end of the process on the loops.

Difficult to decide which way to go.

If only there was a nice argument here like there was about stretching out the halyard and having the mast fall, even more points would be made. It’s possible we have scared The Yacht Rigger out of here. He could add his opinion to the dilemma. And sway things I think.

It’s unfortunate but I have to dwell pretty heavily on this part because if there is a failure, I will then be a power boat guy and getting some bigger engines. Lol. I will have had it with the process.

So I have to dwell and ruminate a while until it becomes very clear I won’t have a failure. Because I don’t WANT to be a power boat guy! Ha ha ha
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Old 22-08-2023, 09:15   #324
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Also this is part of standing rigging. This is the mast step that needs to be moved and it is not going well.

First picture is the mast step. Glued down with 5200. About 12 inches too far forward. Too far toward the tools. It has to go aft. Look at all the epoxy all over the deck. All from chain plate install I hired out. They walked the dripping wet (pre-wet) pieces from one aft corner of the boat all the way forward around the entire boat to the other aft corner dripping epoxy the entire way and stepping in it and basically destroying my nonskid.

Second picture is the access port, one for each side, that was cut into the back, aft wall of the anchor locker in order to reach these. These were cut by the guy who took the money.

Then the third picture is the bolts from the mast step. They are as far as a human arm can reach which is exactly why he put it where he did. Then he made up some kind of excuse about making it easier to run my running rigging. Lol. The real reason is he couldn’t reach any farther in. But now I have to reach farther in to fix his shoddy work.

I was able to get one nut off in there. The washer for that first nut is 5200 onto the surface in there. It’s not coming off. The nut that’s in the distance won’t come off because the ratchet won’t spin it anymore. It’s too loose. And I can’t reach it without the ratchet so there are no other ways at the moment to get it.

The best thing would be to just enlarge the access holes so a torso could get in, but that involves cutting epoxy. So I am really struggling with finding other alternatives.

It’s a 3 foot reach, plus reaching up from the hole.
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Old 22-08-2023, 09:30   #325
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I am confused and stuck. Thatís actually perfect. It means we are getting to the end of the process on the loops.

Difficult to decide which way to go.

If only there was a nice argument here like there was about stretching out the halyard and having the mast fall, even more points would be made. Itís possible we have scared The Yacht Rigger out of here. He could add his opinion to the dilemma. And sway things I think.

Itís unfortunate but I have to dwell pretty heavily on this part because if there is a failure, I will then be a power boat guy and getting some bigger engines. Lol. I will have had it with the process.

So I have to dwell and ruminate a while until it becomes very clear I wonít have a failure. Because I donít WANT to be a power boat guy! Ha ha ha
Dyneema is great because it doesnít fail suddenly like stainless steel: you will see the splice deforming where the stretch makes the stitching do itís damage.

On the other hand, you may not realize this, but when you use the Brummel lock, you donít need the stitchingÖ at all. And there is no way the Brummel affects anything with constructional stretch, it will not split/deform strands let alone cut them. The Brummel does not weaken the splice is any practical measurement. Itís theoretical and only when a Dyneema wizard does the non-Brummel splice with perfect stitching.

You seem to think the Brummel lock is difficult and I have to admit that for something where you only have access to one end of the rope, where you have to turn the braid inside out and back, I remember being hesitant the first time I did that as well, but for this end to end splice it is the easiest thing because you have both ends right together. The instructions are easy to follow and tests have proven the Brummel 100% effective against the splice coming apart.
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Old 22-08-2023, 09:41   #326
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Dyneema is great because it doesn’t fail suddenly like stainless steel: you will see the splice deforming where the stretch makes the stitching do it’s damage.

On the other hand, you may not realize this, but when you use the Brummel lock, you don’t need the stitching… at all. And there is no way the Brummel affects anything with constructional stretch, it will not split/deform strands let alone cut them. The Brummel does not weaken the splice is any practical measurement. It’s theoretical and only when a Dyneema wizard does the non-Brummel splice with perfect stitching.

You seem to think the Brummel lock is difficult and I have to admit that for something where you only have access to one end of the rope, where you have to turn the braid inside out and back, I remember being hesitant the first time I did that as well, but for this end to end splice it is the easiest thing because you have both ends right together. The instructions are easy to follow and tests have proven the Brummel 100% effective against the splice coming apart.
A very compelling argument.

Still a tough decision.

But I will think about it and I am leaning toward the Brummel.

It looks like I’m going to have to cut some epoxy today also. Not thrilled. I will have to set up a vacuum cleaner in one hand, jigsaw in the other hand. Forced air respirator and all of those hoses going down into the anchor locker with me. Yuck. I will also have to wear a head to toe suit and throw it away immediately.

Even so, I’m risking a lot.

It sucks. I can’t hire any of this out. There is no one. The people I have found have destroyed the boat or stolen my savings.

Feeling like I’m backed into a corner here. The world is definitely different than when I started building this. Difficult to adapt

If only I could hire someone to cut the holes and just vacuum out when they were done. Seems so simple.
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Old 22-08-2023, 09:45   #327
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Also, benz does promote Brummel instead of stitching in other postsÖ just matters which way is against what was posted. Note how Seaworthy explain the function of the stitching in the linked post below.

And no, itís not about how it feels or looks as some claim Every step and technique is for creating a stronger splice and testing done by many incl. forum members have showed exactly that. Tapering is important because it was proven that stress risers caused by lack of or wrong tapering is where the splice breaks if there is no weaker point.

For most applications, the weak point should be a tight loop around a pin, shackle or inside a knot. If these points exist but the splice breaks at the taper then it wasnít good.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3278256
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Old 22-08-2023, 09:57   #328
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

About the mast step: I hope you understand now that you canít let people work on your boat without being present and actively monitoring their work 100% of the time.

When we started cruising there was so much I didnít know anything about. Refrigeration a very good example. When I hired someone, who charged me through the nose, and something he didnít did not feel right and I made a comment, they basically said that from their experience it was the correct way of doing things and you canít do anything but shut up. Of course after a couple of weeks it turns out you were right and it has failed again. Money gone and still a broken system. This quickly made me learn everything about it and do it myself.
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Old 22-08-2023, 11:04   #329
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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About the mast step: I hope you understand now that you can’t let people work on your boat without being present and actively monitoring their work 100% of the time.

When we started cruising there was so much I didn’t know anything about. Refrigeration a very good example. When I hired someone, who charged me through the nose, and something he didn’t did not feel right and I made a comment, they basically said that from their experience it was the correct way of doing things and you can’t do anything but shut up. Of course after a couple of weeks it turns out you were right and it has failed again. Money gone and still a broken system. This quickly made me learn everything about it and do it myself.

As you can tell, I have always felt the same way. So much so that I built the entire boat.

I ran into a similar problem with refrigerators and learned how to fix them as well. Richard Kollman taught me everything. That was 20 years ago. Was sad to see he died this month. They are surprisingly simple. But you need a good set of gauges.

It is actually impossible for me to monitor epoxy work. Not without dying or at least a day or two in the hospital. So that’s out.

I am about to suit up and cut that bulkhead epoxy and use supplied air as well as a vacuum to immediately remove dust as it comes off the jigsaw blade. I can do this on deck without much trouble but doing it in the anchor locker is going to be quite challenging. I have to keep the dust from contacting me and I can’t breathe it especially.

It’s a whole different set of challenges than anyone else faces and takes 10x as long.
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Old 22-08-2023, 11:18   #330
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Do you know what’s really cool though? The air!

I actually can put a suit on and go cut this.

I am so used to not being able to do all of the protective equipment due to the heat that I was getting bummed out by default. Lol

This is the entire reason I came up here. So I could actually work on things. Here we go. Down the hole
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