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Old 23-08-2023, 06:01   #346
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Let me add this: for my running backstays I observed my rigger doing something that looks like a Brummel splice but he simply took the end of the rope back and forth through the standing part before burying it.

I commented that he should use the other end for the second pass but he said itíll be okay, just wait and see. I have since learned that this is a regular thing done by many riggers and even though itís not conform the books, it simply works.

I am now replacing those backstays 18 years later and the splices didnít move at all for all those years and they spent most of their time not being under tension and came through many hurricanes and squalls to show it indeed simply works.

My new ones get a real Brummel splice because I now do this work myself, but I wonít be denouncing doing it the other way because I consider that a proven technique as well.

The Brummel type lock as I recommend for a lashing that Chotu needs to make is accepted practice as well as can be seen in many instructions and videos. The reason is that it is very easy to do and proven to work, while lock-stitching is prone to trouble.

If for an application where the splice is unloaded and flapping about on a regular basis, then you can simply add a seizing around the Brummel type lock, without stitching it.
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Old 24-08-2023, 02:19   #347
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Ben, I posted a link showing how itís done. No, it isnít a Brummel splice, but it is a Brummel type lock that is more than enough for the application of Chotu.

Then you calling Brion Tossís method of rebraiding idiotic is a step too far on this forum, even with Brion being passed away. Let it suffice to say that I take Brionís instructions over yours and so will everyone else. You are misguided because you saw someone you donít like do this and assumed he came up with the idea.
What you posted is not appropriate for what Chotu's doing. I'm not sure you've grasped what he's got in mind.

As for Brion Toss--if he did come up with the re-braid, he did it as a novelty--it was an impossible challenge to fool around with, and the solution is not practical. It is, in fact, idiotic to see it as a viable method, and the only thing dumber is to insist on a brummel where one isn't necessary or useful.
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Old 24-08-2023, 02:22   #348
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I have to admit, due to the difficulty of re-braiding, I think Iím back to stitching. It will go much faster for a novice I think.

Also, I have to do 4 of these under pressure while the crane is lingering. Speed will be helpful.

Finally, since Iíll have a pre-tensioned rig (15%?), I wouldnít even actually need the stitching or Brummel in theory. But Iíll stitch it anyway.

These are the conclusions I have arrived at. Assuming I learned everything correctly.

Iím assuming I can do the splice and then stitch it later after it stretches. Yes?

It will be under 2000lbs of pressure (I think. Still have to review this aspect more) at all times. Then when sailing, it will be anywhere between 2000lbs and 14,000 lbs pressure. Divided by the number of ďlegsĒ of the loops of course.

So I donít think I will be completing my constructional stretch until I take it sailing also. Once it is stretched out enough, then I would stitch. Yes?

Or would the 2000 pound pre-tensioning stretch be enough and not worry about the further stretch?
If you can pre-stretch to 2000lb, it'll be set enough to lockstitch safely. Remember you can't lockstitch under tension though--it'll be really hard to get a needle through.
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Old 24-08-2023, 04:22   #349
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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If you can pre-stretch to 2000lb, it'll be set enough to lockstitch safely. Remember you can't lockstitch under tension though--it'll be really hard to get a needle through.
Ooops. Ok.

Iíll see how long the crane can linger. I think it can linger a long time.

I can pre stretch somehow then stitch, even if it means putting it on the rig, stretching with turnbuckles, then loosening the turnbuckles to stitch (using a halyard when tension is off)
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Old 24-08-2023, 05:30   #350
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Ooops. Ok.

Iíll see how long the crane can linger. I think it can linger a long time.

I can pre stretch somehow then stitch, even if it means putting it on the rig, stretching with turnbuckles, then loosening the turnbuckles to stitch (using a halyard when tension is off)
Youíre not gonna get that done under time pressure, please donít let someone make you do this: people are wanting more drama in this show.

Just eye-splice some lengths of Dyneema to the shrouds and do a quick lashing. Youíre not going out sailing the next day, you have all the time you need to do it right afterwards with a tensioned halyard securing the mast while you replace the lashing with the loop.

You need to do the same thing to adjust the loop when creep made it too long. Iím sure you have done such things before.
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Old 24-08-2023, 06:16   #351
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Youíre not gonna get that done under time pressure, please donít let someone make you do this: people are wanting more drama in this show.

Just eye-splice some lengths of Dyneema to the shrouds and do a quick lashing. Youíre not going out sailing the next day, you have all the time you need to do it right afterwards with a tensioned halyard securing the mast while you replace the lashing with the loop.

You need to do the same thing to adjust the loop when creep made it too long. Iím sure you have done such things before.
Ahhhh.

Thatís a good point. Iím not going sailing until next year. Just trying to hold the mast up through noríeasters (like small hurricane)

This is only getting more and more confusing though. If I eye splice, and do lashings, which I donít know how to do yet because I have been studying how to do splices , will a si gel strand of the 6 mm still be enough?

The 6 mm eye splice is the concern I guess.
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Old 24-08-2023, 07:53   #352
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Ahhhh.

Thatís a good point. Iím not going sailing until next year. Just trying to hold the mast up through noríeasters (like small hurricane)

This is only getting more and more confusing though. If I eye splice, and do lashings, which I donít know how to do yet because I have been studying how to do splices , will a si gel strand of the 6 mm still be enough?

The 6 mm eye splice is the concern I guess.
At this point, you could literally forego the splicing altogether just to hold the rig up and do a lashing. Simply tie the end of a piece of 6mm dyneema to the end of the shroud with a bowline, make sure the dyneema is long enough to get at least 5 passes down to the chainplate/turnbuckle and back, and then tie a bunch of half hitches around the loops to secure them. Then tighten turnbuckle.

Static load to hold the rig up while you tune and figure out splices is minimal. The bowline in the lashing system will literally only take 10-20% of the shroud load as it's at the end of a lashing cascade. I can make you a video and send it over if you want.
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Old 24-08-2023, 08:09   #353
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Ahhhh.

Thatís a good point. Iím not going sailing until next year. Just trying to hold the mast up through noríeasters (like small hurricane)

This is only getting more and more confusing though. If I eye splice, and do lashings, which I donít know how to do yet because I have been studying how to do splices , will a si gel strand of the 6 mm still be enough?

The 6 mm eye splice is the concern I guess.
I agree with the rigger. Itís a non issue but you got worried with all the Brummel or no Brummel talk.

But I think you can do a Brummel eye splice in a piece of 6mm Dyneema within 1 hour and the second one within 10 minutes. Even when you donít have tools other than a piece of cello tape. Just cut the piece of Dyneema at the length discussed before and sit down to do it.

Here is a great demo without any tools used: https://www.animatedknots.com/brumme...lice-knot-demo

A couple things:

there are 12 strands. When you push the line through for the Brummel lock, keep 6 strands at each side.

there is no tapering done here. Rope is cheap, I recommend you use 60 times the diameter of the line (15Ē for 6mm 1/4Ē Dyneema) for the buried part and use half of that untapered and taper the other half, one strand at a time. Just pull one strand out at 7Ē and cut it off diagonally. Now pick a strand 1/2Ē further and repeat until you have one strand and cut a little piece off it diagonally.

This is needed for this quick lashing like the rigger explains, but you must grab the chance to practice.

For later, get some tools if you donít have any yet. The D-splicer is very handy but I also use Swedish fids, especially for the Brummel passes.
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Old 24-08-2023, 11:45   #354
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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At this point, you could literally forego the splicing altogether just to hold the rig up and do a lashing. Simply tie the end of a piece of 6mm dyneema to the end of the shroud with a bowline, make sure the dyneema is long enough to get at least 5 passes down to the chainplate/turnbuckle and back, and then tie a bunch of half hitches around the loops to secure them. Then tighten turnbuckle.

Static load to hold the rig up while you tune and figure out splices is minimal. The bowline in the lashing system will literally only take 10-20% of the shroud load as it's at the end of a lashing cascade. I can make you a video and send it over if you want.
Thank you very much for this.

I’m out for a couple days here with a guest at the boat. Will catch up after the weekend
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Old 24-08-2023, 15:02   #355
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Chotu normally crane$ don't linger and the client doesn't want them to linger. Over here they start charging from the time they leave the crane yard and don't stop until they are back in the yard. The Yacht Rigger has the right idea. Just make sure every turnbuckle is free and easy to turn by hand. If you're really stressing about the mast not being properly secured you can always tie the halyards to fittings on the deck.
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Old 24-08-2023, 18:28   #356
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Agreed. A temporary tie off is definitely the way to go.

I’m really glad that superior idea was shared here.

Nothing else makes sense.

Then I’ll have plenty of time to make really good splices for the real loops. I could even get them done before the nor’easters start and find ways to pre-stretch them on a different boat or on my own winches if I do the sail control table (plinth) in time.


Also: I forgot to say thank you to The Yacht Rigger for offering to do the video. I won’t take you up on it yet since you are busy. I should be able to find the procedure online but may also need a bit more description or clarification about it as I’m attempting it. I’ll only ask if I can’t figure it out but thank you!

I have to review, but I think I can only fit 3 turns from each shroud even for the final product. I think we figured out 3 turns of 6mm is all that is needed for 14,000lbs (righting moment). I physically can’t get more than 6 loops/turns onto the chain plate pin (3 from each shroud)
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Old 26-08-2023, 07:03   #357
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Agreed. A temporary tie off is definitely the way to go.

Iím really glad that superior idea was shared here.

Nothing else makes sense.

Then Iíll have plenty of time to make really good splices for the real loops. I could even get them done before the noríeasters start and find ways to pre-stretch them on a different boat or on my own winches if I do the sail control table (plinth) in time.


Also: I forgot to say thank you to The Yacht Rigger for offering to do the video. I wonít take you up on it yet since you are busy. I should be able to find the procedure online but may also need a bit more description or clarification about it as Iím attempting it. Iíll only ask if I canít figure it out but thank you!

I have to review, but I think I can only fit 3 turns from each shroud even for the final product. I think we figured out 3 turns of 6mm is all that is needed for 14,000lbs (righting moment). I physically canít get more than 6 loops/turns onto the chain plate pin (3 from each shroud)
Not trying to freak you out here... who made the 14k LB decision/calculation? If thats the RM, then surely you want a safety factor? For instance, on my 43' cruising cat, I have 10mm compact strand upper shrouds - the fittings on these have a 22k lb rated break load. You have to have a safety factor built in. 14k seems low to me... but I'm not a naval architect.
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Old 26-08-2023, 07:10   #358
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Not trying to freak you out here... who made the 14k LB decision/calculation? If thats the RM, then surely you want a safety factor? For instance, on my 43' cruising cat, I have 10mm compact strand upper shrouds - the fittings on these have a 22k lb rated break load. You have to have a safety factor built in. 14k seems low to me... but I'm not a naval architect.
Surely you know the strength of three loops of 6mm Dyneema? From memory 6mm Amsteel Blue is 8,600lbs so three loops is times 6 makes more than 50,000lbs.
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Old 26-08-2023, 07:21   #359
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Surely you know the strength of three loops of 6mm Dyneema? From memory 6mm Amsteel Blue is 8,600lbs so three loops is times 6 makes more than 50,000lbs.
Aha! I read it in a rush and got hung up on the 14k number... I was thinking passes of a lashing. Not loops. Totally different scenario. Thanks.
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Old 26-08-2023, 07:26   #360
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Surely you know the strength of three loops of 6mm Dyneema? From memory 6mm Amsteel Blue is 8,600lbs so three loops is times 6 makes more than 50,000lbs.
Interestingly, we recently did a test on a loop made out of Marlow SK99 Max, 8mm, 4 passes. With technora sleeve. It broke at 40T, we calculated a BL somewhere in the 80T range.
Needs further testing... but pretty surprising.
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