“New” requirement for NZ Cat 1 certification

[Scotty Kiwi]

I'd be very annoyed if I was prevented from sailing off until I did a week's course.

One reason is that I'm a self teacher. 30 years on and off of Ocean Sailing, reading, and practice ... never done a course (apart from radio at the local boat club $ 50.00). Never had a problem. I practiced in my liferaft at RFD when I was getting it serviced. I don't think I need to do a weeks course on survival in a liferaft, and I really don't need it every two years.

Another is that, arguably, it breeches the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 13(2):

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

I'm not challenging the merits or otherwise of the courses. I'm sure they're great for some folk, not so worthwhile for others, a total barrier for others, and a waste to time for me.

What I am suggesting is that it's not correct for a Government agency to dilute an inaliable right with "Yes you can leave the country, but first you have to jump through the following hoops (eg travel to another city to a course, accommodation, course fees, time). For some people those hoops may present an insurmountable barrier.

Similar arguments have been put (in different circumstances) and met with some success only once the argument gets to a senior level. I'd try it at the junior bureaucrat level, but I doubt it would resonate there.

The general counter to this point would be that we accept that we have to jump through hoops before we undertake certain activities ... e.g. pass a test and hold a drivers licence before driving. But a drivers licence test is available in local communities, is affordable and lasts a lifetime. Driving is a privilege. I'd argue that sailing is one of the most ancient human rights. Hmmm.

I reckon Maritime NZ is out of order on this one, and would retract if challenged at a senior level.

[Boatguy30]

I'd say you're onto it! Just say you're scared to fly and you are using your only other method to practice your guarantee right to leave!!??

I have not been back to NZ in 9 years, but had been a resident. I hope I arrive to as free a country as I have experienced in the past. Cat 1 regs aside.

[DumnMad]

""At least 30% but not fewer than two members of a crew, including the skipper, shall have undertaken sea survival training within the five years before the start of the voyage.""

Clearly not a sincere attemp to save lives on offshore vessels. In NZ most lives lost at sea are in coastal waters so this is just picking on a small group to get revenue for their mates.

A sincere effort would include the bureaucrats themselves puting the work needed to produce safety advice U-Tube courses for various critical situations that may arise at sea. This sort of approach would reach far more people than the few who attended their self promoting courses in Auckland.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by KiwiKen

I am sure it will come, it is a gold mine waiting to be tapped.
Here in Australia all pleasure craft must be registered, and the fee is not insignificant, although we golden oldies get a concession rate. Boats up to 20mtr cost $A320 pa in Queensland, and it has spawned a great revenue spinner for the Water Police, with prosecutions for expired registration, deficiencies in safety equipment, flares time expired etc, and let us not forget the breathalyser, the road limits apply, so a beer too many will cost.
The licence to drive a boat is an add on to the drivers licence, and that extra beer will also put you off the road.


i am amazed that the NZ authorities have not already got onto it.

The problem is that everyone just pays the fines. If, for just one year, everyone that received any infringement notice elected to have it dealt with by the courts, the court lists would run out to about three hundred years and your ancestors would have long spent all the money before it got heard. That passive resistance bloke in India knew what he was talking about.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by chrisr

how many of us have tried to climb into a life raft in full wets, in the dark, in a rough sea ? how many of us have tried to swim in an inflated life jacket ? the list goes on and on,

Perhaps that is a sensible argument and I haven’t yet done the course but I do know that it is not held at night and I would be astonished if the presenters of the course told me to bring my “wets” because we’re going to swim in them. I also know that the practical elements of the course will be held in a tranquil, warm swimming pool. So the first sentence above will not be covered in the course anyway.

How many of us have done multiple ocean passages without incident? How many have successfully sailed through seriously challenging weather? How many have managed to never lose people over the side? That list goes on and on too.

How many boats have had people killed on board? Or lost a crewman into the sea and not gone searching for him? Not a heck of a lot and yet one incident now defines safety requirement for folks that have successfully and safely crossed oceans for decades.

It’s a load of old cobblers. Somebody said “It wouldn’t have happened if they had proper training”. Someone else said “How much can we charge for the course”. And the rest is history.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Grattaway

Cassidy if you are an experienced ocean cruiser the inspector does have a discretion with regards to more training - I would ask the question especially if you can prove appropriate skill - and I think this should be a key measure.

The very competent inspector who has done my inspections before and will continue to be asked, has told me that no inspector will issue a Cat 1 until he receives the Survival cert.

Originally Posted by Grattaway

I am also not sure what would really happen if you sailed out of NZ without clearance - are the pacific islands or Aussies really going to turn you away -dont think so - ask your friendly inspector to send you an email when vessel complies.

Leaving New Zealand requires customs clearance. Customs clearance will not happen for an NZ registered vessel until the customs officer receives a valid Cat 1 certification. A valid Cat 1 certification will not be issued without a Survival certificate. A Survival cert will not be issued until you have completed the course. It’s an inviolable process. And yes, all island groups require a last-port-clearance document on arrival and certainly would take a strong stance if you have not been cleared by the previous country’s customs dept.

Originally Posted by Grattaway

Also what happens to arrivals - I have purchased a yacht based in Langkawi - will reregister in NZ shortly - ex UK - and at some point sail to NZ.
so I could do this regardless of appropriateness of vessel or crew experience?

Yes you could. The only thing you have to prove on arrival is that you don’t need to pay import duty and GST. Good luck with that. Oh, and they will also want your last-port-clearance document. And be sure to complete the pre-arrival forms and send them to NZ Customs before you leave your last port.

Did someone tell you it would be easy?

[Dulls]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Yet the UK requires no licence for even ocean sailing. Nor does the boat need registration. The only reason we have our Small Ships Register (SSR) which is a A5 single piece of paper, with no checks required when you apply is to pacify the French just across the water who like lots of regulations.

Strange world.

Pete

And long may we remain free men.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

The very competent inspector who has done my inspections before and will continue to be asked, has told me that no inspector will issue a Cat 1 until he receives the Survival cert.







Leaving New Zealand requires customs clearance. Customs clearance will not happen for an NZ registered vessel until the customs officer receives a valid Cat 1 certification. A valid Cat 1 certification will not be issued without a Survival certificate. A Survival cert will not be issued until you have completed the course. It’s an inviolable process. And yes, all island groups require a last-port-clearance document on arrival and certainly would take a strong stance if you have not been cleared by the previous country’s customs dept.







Yes you could. The only thing you have to prove on arrival is that you don’t need to pay import duty and GST. Good luck with that. Oh, and they will also want your last-port-clearance document. And be sure to complete the pre-arrival forms and send them to NZ Customs before you leave your last port.



Did someone tell you it would be easy?

Why not keep the registration with the UK and avoid Cat 1 when you leave NZ?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Perhaps that is a sensible argument and I haven’t yet done the course but I do know that it is not held at night and I would be astonished if the presenters of the course told me to bring my “wets” because we’re going to swim in them. I also know that the practical elements of the course will be held in a tranquil, warm swimming pool. So the first sentence above will not be covered in the course anyway.



How many of us have done multiple ocean passages without incident? How many have successfully sailed through seriously challenging weather? How many have managed to never lose people over the side? That list goes on and on too.



How many boats have had people killed on board? Or lost a crewman into the sea and not gone searching for him? Not a heck of a lot and yet one incident now defines safety requirement for folks that have successfully and safely crossed oceans for decades.



It’s a load of old cobblers. Somebody said “It wouldn’t have happened if they had proper training”. Someone else said “How much can we charge for the course”. And the rest is history.

https://www.boatingeducation.org.nz/...-sea-survival/

The course is one full day (website shows two days, but our Auckland instructor did it in one day). We spent about 4 hours in the morning in a classroom. The afternoon was spent at a local wave pool.

We were instructed to bring our foul weather gear and own PFDs. It took over a year to get the chlorine smell out. We wore sleeping masks to blind us - that really made getting into the life raft tricky and once in the raft and with the waves quite vomit inducing. The wave pool was in no way tranquil, albeit overly warm with clothes and wet weather gear.

The biggest takeaway from the course was to do everything possible to avoid the need to have to use a life raft (we called it a death raft). Second was that the inflated bladder really makes it more difficult to enter the life raft.

[KiwiKen]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Why not keep the registration with the UK and avoid Cat 1 when you leave NZ?

Socialist New Zealand is the ultimate Nanny State, it has become more so over recent years.


It is hard to believe this is the land of Sir Edmund Hillary, Peter Blake and so many other renown adventurers, when the State puts so much effort into protecting it's citizens from themselves by restrictive legislation.

[George DuBose]

Lawmakers have to make laws or they aren't doing their "job".

The problem is that the lawmakers often don't have practical experience with what they are making laws about.

My favorite example is the EU law stating that seacocks must be changed every five years.

One attraction to sailing is that it takes only 12 miles to be out of their reach.

[double u]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

.... Kinda makes me glad that when we were considering emigrating to NZ they turned us down due to being over 55...

Jim

second that.
Kiwis getting a load of their own medicine - bureaucracy...!

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by George DuBose

... My favorite example is the EU law stating that seacocks must be changed every five years ...

Bullroar.
The European Community’s Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) of 1988 introduced an ISO standard for through-hull fittings stating they should be corrosion-resistant for a service life of (at least) five years.

Small craft - Seacocks and through-hull fittings - Part 1: Metallic (ISO 9093-1:1994)

[double u]

the manufacturer can use brass seacocks on a CE certified boat - & then it would make sense to change them - not necessarily after 5 years - they are definitely NOT "life-of-the-boat"-type of equipment.
& afaik knowbody every was hassled for compliance. So this compares poorly with NZ regulations

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by George DuBose

Lawmakers have to make laws or they aren't doing their "job".

The problem is that the lawmakers often don't have practical experience with what they are making laws about.

My favorite example is the EU law stating that seacocks must be changed every five years.

One attraction to sailing is that it takes only 12 miles to be out of their reach.

Good you don’t actually read these EU laws then because if you did you might realise it says nothing if the sort.

Of course the EU law tried to ban bendy bananas or was just a lie written Boris Johnston when he was Brussels correspondant for the telegraph and was too lazy to visit Brussels or read the official transcripts and just made stuff up instead.