“New” requirement for NZ Cat 1 certification

[Grattaway]

Unfortunately in NZ we are currently in the middle of a cycle of "rules and more rules" will solve all problems -socialist planners at their best - or worst.
20 years ago we devolved lots of work and play down to risk management eg - as a business operator you design your work prgramme to manage risk. Govt will do the same. Unfortunately IMO we are heading back to bigger and more detailed rule books which over time become both more and more over bearing and also outdated

Safety regulations that were written around vessels are now focusing on people - and just watch there will be a push to roll out more rules to all vessels in NZ which could include vessel registration just like they are planning for firearms

Cassidy if you are an experienced ocean cruiser the inspector does have a discretion with regards to more training - I would ask the question especially if you can prove appropriate skill - and I think this should be a key measure

I am also not sure what would really happen if you sailed out of NZ without clearance - are the pacific islands or Aussies really going to turn you away -dont think so - ask your friendly inspector to send you an email when vessel complies.

Also what happens to arrivals - I have purchased a yacht based in Langkawi - will reregister in NZ shortly - ex UK - and at some point sail to NZ.
so I could do this regardless of appropriateness of vessel or crew experience?

[KiwiKen]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Good grief! Kinda makes me glad that when we were considering emigrating to NZ they turned us down due to being over 55. This kind of oversight does not sit well with me, and I sympathize with those subject to it.

It also helps explain why so many Kiwis register t heir boats elsewhere.

Jim

Typical of the New Zealand Nanny State, it amazes me that New Zealanders have achieved so much in a variety of outdoor activities and sports, Ed Hillary being a good example, plus so many of our successful yachtsmen and women, If the authorities had any say it would have been all too hard to do anything except join the local knitting club.


Regretfully, in addition to being the ultimate Nanny State, New Zealand is hell bent on being the politically correct virtue signalling capital of the World. One of the reasons I chose Brisbane as the place to spend my twilight years - 80 not out.



New Zealanders have a solid track record of punching well above their weight, but that is no thanks to the nanny state.

[KiwiKen]

Originally Posted by Compass790

Yes a lot of regulation is about revenue raising.

I'm amazed we have escaped licencing fees & boat registration locally for so long & I'm guessing our on water accident statistics are no worse than those countries that do have those requirements.
I'm sure it's coming.

I am sure it will come, it is a gold mine waiting to be tapped.
Here in Australia all pleasure craft must be registered, and the fee is not insignificant, although we golden oldies get a concession rate. Boats up to 20mtr cost $A320 pa in Queensland, and it has spawned a great revenue spinner for the Water Police, with prosecutions for expired registration, deficiencies in safety equipment, flares time expired etc, and let us not forget the breathalyser, the road limits apply, so a beer too many will cost.
The licence to drive a boat is an add on to the drivers licence, and that extra beer will also put you off the road.


i am amazed that the NZ authorities have not already got onto it.

[Jim Cate]

It is interesting to note that the UK, as reported upthread, has no licensing or equipment regulations, and very simple rego processes. The surrounding waters are amongst the most challenging in the yachting world, and yet as far as I know they do not have a disproportionate accident or fatality rate.

How can this be, one wonders, if the Kiwi approach is correct? Perhaps those who think over regulation is related to revenue generation and a general sense of gov control freaks exercising their prerogatives have it dialed in...

I wonder if they require a single hander to keep their CPR training up to date?

Jim

[KiwiKen]

"I wonder if they require a single hander to keep their CPR training up to date?"


Kiwis have always been a "Do it one self race" so why not CPR.


Recalling from my distant past of teaching and examining Boatmaster, Costal and Ocean Yachtmaster in NZ, they probably don't officially recognise single handers, because a question at the Boatmaster level asked " Why does single handed sailing contravene the Collision Regulations? - approved answer " because it is impossible to keep a thorough lookout by sight and sound at all times"


The senior examiner used to mark answers wrong if a candidate noted atmospheric pressure in millibars rather than hectapascals - I asked him if he had a Pascalometer on his lounge wall and in his boat. It fell on deaf ears.


NZ is a good example of rule of unintended consequences from rules arising out of good intentions.


Looking back at my sailing in UK waters, it was pretty laisez faire, there was RYA coastal and ocean courses, I taught them for a while, but no compulsion, and considering the environment very few incidents. I remember counting about 60 vessels above the horizon in the Dover straight, and to think that that traffic was fairly standard 24 x7 irrespective of the visibility and weather.

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by KiwiKen

Typical of the New Zealand Nanny State, it amazes me that New Zealanders have achieved so much in a variety of outdoor activities and sports, Ed Hillary being a good example, plus so many of our successful yachtsmen and women, If the authorities had any say it would have been all too hard to do anything except join the local knitting club.


Regretfully, in addition to being the ultimate Nanny State, New Zealand is hell bent on being the politically correct virtue signalling capital of the World. One of the reasons I chose Brisbane as the place to spend my twilight years - 80 not out.



New Zealanders have a solid track record of punching well above their weight, but that is no thanks to the nanny state.

The days of Kiwis punching above their weight might be long gone mate, phased out steadily as more regulation phased in. I reckon its inversely proportional.

[RaymondR]

I have a friend who for decades has sailed from Australia every year to New Caledonia and the Solomons' and returns to Australia for the cyclone season.

A few years ago he was given an infringement notice for lack of Queensland registration. Thinking that because the vessels home port on the transom was in the Solomons' that his vessel was registered there I wrote a letter for him explaining that the notice was unlawfully issued and returned it. He received a letter back telling him to ignore any previous correspondence but unfortunately the confirmation copy of the original notice had gone to his wife's address and she'd already paid the fine.

The interesting thing about the affair was that when I asked to see his vessel registration documents to extract a few facts to quote I found that for about fifteen years he had been clearing in and out of many south pacific countries, one of which was New Zealand, and Australia on an expired fishing license from the Solomon Islands.

I dunno what the moral of this story is but it does demonstrate how amenable bureaucracies can be if you are pleasant and have a piece of paper with all the bits filled in.

[Scotty Kiwi]

Giday Grataway: "I am also not sure what would really happen if you sailed out of NZ without clearance - are the pacific islands or Aussies really going to turn you away -dont think so - ask your friendly inspector to send you an email when vessel complies.

Also what happens to arrivals - I have purchased a yacht based in Langkawi - will reregister in NZ shortly - ex UK - and at some point sail to NZ.
so I could do this regardless of appropriateness of vessel or crew experience?"

Based on last few weeks sailing through about five Pacific Island countries. All (still) 100% insistent on viewing and keeping the original exit documents from previous port. I don't exactly know the consequences of arrival without previous port exit, but was told by officials at the ports I was exiting of fines/imprisonment if I was unable to show the exit documents. I've dealt with (paid fines) to officials who are clearly keen for any opportunity to raise revenue (not unusual anywhere). I've experienced boat confinement by officials who incorrectly accused me of a breech of their regulations, being released after putting my case successfully (I'll put a separate post up about this).

"My" NZ yacht was Vanuatu registered, and owned by offshore parties. Some costs each year, but well worth it IMHO. About a week from Mana, and on the way more or less from Langkawi (done that trip five times).

Many threads on CF on where to register and domicile. NZ wouldn't come into the picture (but I might be a bit out of date).

I'm at Waikanae Beach. I think the local fisherman told me about your boat just the other day. All good!

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

I have a friend who for decades has sailed from Australia every year to New Caledonia and the Solomons' and returns to Australia for the cyclone season.

A few years ago he was given an infringement notice for lack of Queensland registration. Thinking that because the vessels home port on the transom was in the Solomons' that his vessel was registered there I wrote a letter for him explaining that the notice was unlawfully issued and returned it. He received a letter back telling him to ignore any previous correspondence but unfortunately the confirmation copy of the original notice had gone to his wife's address and she'd already paid the fine.

The interesting thing about the affair was that when I asked to see his vessel registration documents to extract a few facts to quote I found that for about fifteen years he had been clearing in and out of many south pacific countries, one of which was New Zealand, and Australia on an expired fishing license from the Solomon Islands.

I dunno what the moral of this story is but it does demonstrate how amenable bureaucracies can be if you are pleasant and have a piece of paper with all the bits filled in.

Oh yeah - the Pacific Island officials were thorough about last port exit docs. and most (not all) needed to see vessel registration, proof of ownership etc. These last docs were all correct, but they were in written in German. Most officials had no idea at all of what the German language documents actually said ... they barely glanced at them and put them aside. Some asked "so that's proof of registration?" me "Yes". The document could have said anything. Hmmm.

[Tillsbury]

Nz did impose these regulations on all boats back in the late 90s. I remember it being all over Yachting Monthly at the time. There was a big hoo hah and one guy single handed left without epirb and left strict instructions that he was not to be rescued if he got into trouble. But it was quickly overturned for various reasons, the main one being that no-one would visit and a significant amount of marine business would disappear. Lots of boats end up here needing significant work as it's the first proper repair place after the US.

Things are changing though. Recently the price of nz registration was dramatically reduced from over nz$1000 to about 300 for 5 years. And I know of at least one legal challenge to the cat1 regulations in progress at the moment. They are written and designed for offshore yacht races organised by yachting new Zealand, but they have been commandeered by Maritime New Zealand to apply to every leaving boat. There is significant doubt that they have the authority to do that, but the drop in price of nz regulation is the first step in realising that they are not going to be able to keep it up as everyone can just register abroad and leave. It would be better if they took a more reasonable view of things.

That said, New Zealand is a very special case. There's no other major sailing country where every single trip abroad is a significant offshore passage in dangerous waters.

[chrisr]

i'd like to put up an alternative view

i've been a professional seaman and ocean racer for well over 40 years...thought i had seen / done most things

however the first time i did a sea safety survival course was a real eye opener

how many of us have tried to climb into a life raft in full wets, in the dark, in a rough sea ? how many of us have tried to swim in an inflated life jacket ? the list goes on and on

whilst i hate govt interference (and esp if actually getting to one of these courses is so difficult / expensive), please don't knock the value of the training unless you've done it (and then you won't)

cheers,

[RaymondR]

I did not mind the climbing into life rafts etc but the one I abhorred was the helicopter ditching course.

Nor so bad when they dunk you in the tank right side up and you have to unbuckle, open the door, exit and swim to the surface. However really unpleasant when they do the rapid inversion and you have to do it upside down.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by chrisr

i'd like to put up an alternative view

i've been a professional seaman and ocean racer for well over 40 years...thought i had seen / done most things

however the first time i did a sea safety survival course was a real eye opener

how many of us have tried to climb into a life raft in full wets, in the dark, in a rough sea ? how many of us have tried to swim in an inflated life jacket ? the list goes on and on

whilst i hate govt interference (and esp if actually getting to one of these courses is so difficult / expensive), please don't knock the value of the training unless you've done it (and then you won't)

cheers,

Thanks for this, I was going to post something similar

Having done many of those types of courses, well this training just might save people's lives... (I had a serious engine room fire once - the crew's fire training saved lives, and the boat too)

Or, as mentioned, sometimes the training experiences are just so damn awful (and maybe frightening - a wake up call perhaps...) that it pushes you to take all the correct and necessary safety precautions in advance so as to to end up in that situation in the first place.

So instilling some prudence, well that's good too

[Boatguy30]

Seems like prior ocean passages should qualify at least for the crew towards satisfying this requirement.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Seems like prior ocean passages should qualify at least for the crew towards satisfying this requirement.

Yes and no. Because it is not really the same thing.

In a past life I was immersed in the racing scene both inshore and offshore. Many of those guys would qualify under some type of grandfathered 'ocean passage' qualification.

But whilst supposedly being "experienced" (and they were in a certain context), and certainly knowing how to make the boat go fast, unfortunately their seamanship and safety skills where often lacking.

I would say this applies to many cruisers these days too. It doesn't take much to build up quite a few thousand miles at sea if you are live aboard cruiser.

But that is totally unrelated to trained, learnt, safety skills.

The OP even mentions an example in his first post - there were "experienced" crew onboard Platino however they didn't act in a trained, experienced, manner when things went wrong.

And lives were lost because of it.