Captain's License vs ASA 105 course

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Portage_bay

A challenge to those posters stating that holding a USCG master's credential holds you to a higher standard in a recreational boat incident. Provide some proof. Cite court cases where a credentialed mariner was held to the supposed higher standard. Show the CFRs that relate to that. Not "I talked to someone". Even if that someone was USCG. I've been inspected enough times to know that sometimes they are wrong. A thorough understanding of the relevant CFRs is good to have when dealing with the USCG. Vessel inspections, licensing and investigations.

It may be true that a credentialed mariner operating his or her own boat involved in an incident may be held to a higher standard. Maybe. Should be, but it's just maybe.

I've held a 'captains ticket' for over 50 yrs and never worried about it when on recreational boats not working for hire. Deliveries of recreational boats were another thing, I was getting paid, IMO my credential was on the line just as if I were carrying paying passengers. Maybe not, but that's they way I treated it.

I already related an actual experience. Luckily nothing came of it and I was pretty sure my legal defense would have been a slam dunk if it had come to that, but no unlicensed captain would have been verbally pummeled by 3 year "veterans" of the USCG as I was.

However, you CAN have your license suspended or revoked, if you have one. You can't, if you don't. For anyone who sometimes or usually needs that license to make a living, that could be pretty serious.

[Portage_bay]

Yes, you related an actual experience. But it was on a work boat, not a pleasure boat. And you were the captain of the boat. I understand it was a no license required work boat.

But my question specifically is about an incident on a pleasure boat involving a credentialed mariner who is not in charge of the boat. That is the great big scary thing I hear brought up time and again. Don't get a license, something happens and you're on board you're in trouble. Nonsense.

I share your experience with desk bound coasties with no sea going experience. Teaching them the relevant CFRs. Frustrating.

On grounding to save a boat. Interesting story. I'd been pressed during inspections what about this, what about that, how will you handle a fire. Yadda yadda yadda. That was while running an inland boat. My replay was straight forward. We have the training, we have the required equipment and then some. But first I'm gonna ground the boat have everyone not needed to fight the fire jump off and walk to the beach. That didn't go over too well.

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

I already related an actual experience. Luckily nothing came of it and I was pretty sure my legal defense would have been a slam dunk if it had come to that, but no unlicensed captain would have been verbally pummeled by 3 year "veterans" of the USCG as I was.

However, you CAN have your license suspended or revoked, if you have one. You can't, if you don't. For anyone who sometimes or usually needs that license to make a living, that could be pretty serious.

[wholybee]

In order for a licensed captain to be held to a higher standard, does that mean that an unlicensed skipper is not held to the CFRs and COLREGS? Does an unlicensed skipper have the privilege of not following the rules, and not having the consequences if there is an issue?

[CaptJimFrei]

Originally Posted by OS2Dude

Unless you have an absolute NEED for a Captain's License, I'd steer clear. Holding a Captain's License has legal repercussions active 24/7/365, your boat or not. You WILL be held to a higher standard in case of an accident, even though you may not be in command or even when a non-licensed person may not be considered to be at fault.

Can you cite case law where this is actually true or has ever happened?

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

What recreational boater on a vessel under 100t will ever use this knowledge or even have the need to know this? A basic understanding of stability would more than suffice. Its like saying you MUST be able to do celestial navigation!

https://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/us/ne...nks/index.html

[OS2Dude]

Originally Posted by nonav

Are you sure about this?

We were told that if you are a guest aboard somebody’s boat, not hired on as a captain, to keep your mouth shut about your license.

That said, there are only a few boats I’m on where it feels safe not to be on watch the entire time.

It’s nice to feel safe enough to sleep with both eyes closed!

It is what I was told by someone with a Captains License when I expressed interest in getting one. The fact you were told not to volunteer you have one as a guest on board someone else's boat seems to back it up.

[OS2Dude]

Originally Posted by CaptJimFrei

Can you cite case law where this is actually true or has ever happened?

No, but I was told that was so by someone who had one when I expressed interest in getting one myself. He was very adamant that unless I needed one for a job I should NOT pursue getting one.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by OS2Dude

It is what I was told by someone with a Captains License when I expressed interest in getting one. The fact you were told not to volunteer you have one as a guest on board someone else's boat seems to back it up.

Originally Posted by OS2Dude

No, but I was told that was so by someone who had one when I expressed interest in getting one myself. He was very adamant that unless I needed one for a job I should NOT pursue getting one.

Maybe he had been told that by someone before him, who had been told that by someone before him, who had been told that... etc etc etc.

Without citation, it's all horse hockey.

-Chris

[Julesmic]

Hi everyone, I've just come back from traveling to get out of the New England winter and have caught up on the replies. Lots of really helpful info and also, spirited conversation .
This has really helped me decide on my next steps. Definitely the ASA course supplemented some additional courses. And of course getting out there sailing to practice. Even though I've been sailing for 17 years, I've allowed my husband to figure out the tides and plot the courses I was content to handle the other aspects of sailing - lines, sail trim, etc etc. Anyways thanks everyone for the advice and links. Very helpful!

[nonav]

I don’t think this applies to groundings and fender benders, though death and serious injuries are something else all together.

Obviously when getting paid, we certainly are tasked to a higher standard.

The advisory I received came from our instructor, a tanker captain and instructor at a maritime academy of 20+ years.

“The owner of an excursion motorboat (thus for hire) has been held to be governed by the duty of highest degree of care that a common carrier has a to exercise and is liable for even the slightest negligence. Loc-Wood Boat & Motors, Inc. v. Rockwell, 245 F.2d 306 (8th Cir. Mo. 1957). However, a boat owner as a gratuitous bailor (not for hire) owes merely a duty of ordinary care toward a third person who was injured aboard the boat while it was being used by the bailee. Hogan v. Hellman, 7 F.2d 949 (D. Cal. 1925). Note that any form of consideration paid to the owner of the boat can alter the level of duty required. See our article on contracts.

A vessel owner’s liability may be predicated on his negligence in entrusting his vessel to an incompetent operator. Boland v. Suncoast Rent-A-Scooter, Inc., 439 So. 2d 916 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 2d Dist. 1983). The Limited Liability Act limits the liability of an owner of a vessel to the value of the vessel and its freight for any damage done without the privity or knowledge of such owner. Sisson v. Ruby, 497 U.S. 358 (U.S. 1990)”

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by nonav

However, a boat owner as a gratuitous bailor (not for hire) owes merely a duty of ordinary care toward a third person who was injured aboard the boat while it was being used by the bailee. Hogan v. Hellman, 7 F.2d 949 (D. Cal. 1925).

So ditto a licensed mariner in the position of unpaid passenger aboard... merely a duty of ordinary care... if even that.

I suspect I'd hate to be held accountable if a cruise ship I'm riding on has a boo-boo...

-Chris

[Cari Laut]

I just want to jump in for some clarification.

Having a USCG license does not mean you are always using it.
The CG has their own distinction between whether you are a “Holder of” or are “operating under the authority of” your MMC. If you are not “ operating under the authority of”, you are not held liable for the actions of others.

For the gentleman who intentionally ran his F/V aground… the grounding of a commercial vessel is a reportable marine casualty. You were required to notify the CG and fill out a CG-2692. I imagine this is one of the many forms they had you complete after the fact.

Also, there has been some misinformation about the USCG exams. For OUPV, there are 4 sections. Rules of the Road requires 90%. Chart Plotting, General Navigation, and Deck General/Safety all require 70%.

100T Upgrade is a single test combining all subjects with a 70% to pass. Some organizations combine both OUPV and 100T Upgrade into a “single course”.

As for the rumor that paper navigation was on its way out, it’s not happening any time soon. In my last conversation with the head office f the training division from USCG NMC, until every vessel on earth has electronic navigation, paper nav will be the requirement.

[Cari Laut]

For the OP weighing your options, if you are deciding between OUPV and ASA, you can’t really go wrong with either. Although, the most can passage someone mentioned would probably be your best (albeit most expensive) option. There are many great sailors out there offering these.

[nonav]

Originally Posted by Cari Laut

I just want to jump in for some clarification.

Having a USCG license does not mean you are always using it.
The CG has their own distinction between whether you are a “Holder of” or are “operating under the authority of” your MMC. If you are not “ operating under the authority of”, you are not held liable for the actions of others.

For the gentleman who intentionally ran his F/V aground… the grounding of a commercial vessel is a reportable marine casualty. You were required to notify the CG and fill out a CG-2692. I imagine this is one of the many forms they had you complete after the fact.

Also, there has been some misinformation about the USCG exams. For OUPV, there are 4 sections. Rules of the Road requires 90%. Chart Plotting, General Navigation, and Deck General/Safety all require 70%.

100T Upgrade is a single test combining all subjects with a 70% to pass. Some organizations combine both OUPV and 100T Upgrade into a “single course”.

As for the rumor that paper navigation was on its way out, it’s not happening any time soon. In my last conversation with the head office f the training division from USCG NMC, until every vessel on earth has electronic navigation, paper nav will be the requirement.

I was very surprised they’d even consider dropping paper Nav.

The skills it teaches you help even when using electronics.

The number of people I’ve been with or taught, that can follow a track, yet have no idea how to use or tweak their plotter, RADAR, sounder, is far too high.

[JPK]

Originally Posted by Cari Laut

As for the rumor that paper navigation was on its way out, it’s not happening any time soon. In my last conversation with the head office f the training division from USCG NMC, until every vessel on earth has electronic navigation, paper nav will be the requirement.

I can't speak to what the USCG is doing, or even ASA for that matter, but US Sailing is moving away from paper navigation, FWIW. I'm currently working my way through the US Sailing curriculum (working on CPM at the moment). The club/school that I belong to is the largest on the west coast and one of the two largest in the country, so they have a lot of input on US Sailing's curriculum. Coincidentally, I'm halfway through their Coastal Navigation course. We were informed last weekend that Coastal Navigation (i.e., paper charting) will no longer be a prerequisite for the CPM or OPM programs. The class will still exist for the foreseeable future but will likely be taught very infrequently (1-2x, yr) and is being replaced with "Nav1" and "Nav2" classes, which are both electronic navigation courses. From what I understand, it's up to the individual school to decide the details of what apps/tools will be taught. Our club plans to teach Nav1 in Navionics on iPads and Nav2 in OpenCPN. Celestial Navigation will remain as part of the OPM curriculum, though.

So, I don't doubt that the USCG and Navy may teach paper navigation for quite some time to come, but it seems that recreational instruction is definitely moving away from paper navigation as part of the core curriculum and if it remains it will be for those that have a curiosity in it.