Captain's License vs ASA 105 course

[Benz]

Originally Posted by OS2Dude

Unless you have an absolute NEED for a Captain's License, I'd steer clear. Holding a Captain's License has legal repercussions active 24/7/365, your boat or not. You WILL be held to a higher standard in case of an accident, even though you may not be in command or even when a non-licensed person may not be considered to be at fault.

Can you please cite your source for this? This would be an unenforceable stricture in so many cases. What if I was a passenger on a ferry which had a collision. Would my having my captain's license in my pocket require me to go back-seat-drive the captain about being dangerous, or even to knock him over and take the wheel if I though he was an idiot? What kind of chaos would ensue if five different license holders knew they would be held responsible for another captain's errors?
I think this is a specious and idiotic rumor. Responsibility legally rests with a logged chain of command--Master, mate, etc--but none can be allocated to an innocent passenger regardless of his qualifications.

Perhaps we need another thread where all the sea-lawyers can weigh in.

[GrowleyMonster]

USCG Operators licenses and Inland or Near Coastal Masters Licenses do not have as part of the exam, any real navigation other than DR, GPS, etc. No celestial whatsoever, not even LAN or compass check by amplitude or azimuth. Ocean Master and Mate license exams test the applicant on basic celestial. You can't sit for any Ocean license until you have a year sea time on the same tonnage Near Coastal. If you want to learn Navigation, sick with a yacht syllabus like the ASA program or RYA.

The chart exercises and the Rules module require a 90% passing score. On the chart problems, one question often depends upon the answer to the previous one, so one mistake can blow the whole element. I actually had a problem passing that part and had to take the Nav module again and then one more time was the charm. Rules SHOULD be 100%. You either know Rules or you only partly know Rules, and partly knowing can cost lives.

One thing that the USCG exam will teach you is how to look stuff up in the CFR, so you know what it takes to be in compliance. Also, you would be required to go to a firefighting school which is good and also a lot of fun, to get your firefighting certificate. And First Aid and CPR. Radar observer, too, once you get above 200 tons. You will also know how to plan a voyage properly, you will know Damage Control, yeah all that stuff. You just won't be tested on Navigation except for DR and electronic position determination, Hey, if you can find the on/off switch you got that part sewed up, anyhow. So anyway, for a License, you have to learn a lot of stuff that ASA courses maybe don't really go into. And the ASA courses teach you some stuff that License prep courses don't teach, especially Inland or NC Licenses.

I should add that you need to document 720 days of seatime for a 100 ton Master's License, and 1080 days for AB Unlimited, (Or 3rd Mate Oceans unlimited tonnage, with part of that while sailing as AB or Bosun) and you must also get your Lifeboatman certificate. You can't be an Unlimited AB without also being a Lifeboatman. If you go to a license prep school, and you can document enough seatime, be sure and get your AB ticket as well. Don't confuse Green and Blue. Green is actually Unlimited, Blue is Limited. Not a lot of practical difference except on a ship you make more money, and you can't sail as Bosun or Carpenter (there are not many Carpenter jobs anymore, actually) and this is not law, only standard practice that has pretty much zero exceptions; Blue Ticket requires only 360 days, as I recall. Then there is AB Special. Read, "Special Ed" LOL! No Lifeboatman requirement. Several sub classifications such as OSV, Offshore Supply Vessel.

AB's don't really learn any Navigation, either. They need to know how to steer, splice, grease, chip, paint, stand a proper lookout, tie up the ship, work cargo, operate cranes and stuff when the stevedores won't or can't, operate forklift, lower ramps, vet and log all visitors that come up the gangway, rig pilot ladders, stuff like that. As a lookout of course they need some basic familiarity with Rules, particularly lights and day shapes and sound signals. They don't Navigate.

I have found that yes, depending on the Coasties, generally you are indeed held to a higher standard of knowledge if you are Licensed. Also if you screw up really bad, you License is definitely in jeopardy. An unlicensed owner/skipper only loses his boat, and maybe gets a fine or rarely, prison time, but he has no License to lose. I was running a shrimp trawler once, after I had got my license, which BTW I did not need to be a shrimp boat Captain. Wooden boat, and all the caulking and a good bit of the stem fell slap out of the bow! The boat had been used for scalloping for many months and so the boat had been down by the stern practically the whole time, and dried out parts that normally would not be dry. So the boat was making crazy water, and I couldn't find the source. I hightailed it for the Brownsville/ Port Isabel jetties, got inside, and carefully put her aground so she wouldn't sink. Logical, right? Something any old shrimper would think of, rather than let the boat go down way out in the Gulf. However, because I was licensed, I got the third degree. Why didn't I report the grounding? It never occurred to me because it was not an accidental grounding. It was hard core damage control. I had to fill out a bunch of forms and you would have thought that they were going to convene a special session of Congress right there. The fact that none of the Coasties that boarded had ever REALLY gone to sea and only had a few years in the CG certainly didn't help me as I explained in slow and simple language that even a yankee could understand. BUT, that is not reason to shy away from a License. Just don't screw up like I did. Nothing came of it, no fine, no License action, but what a PITA.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Just as an example, do you know how to do a basic stability calculation? What a metacentric height is? How about a GM?

What recreational boater on a vessel under 100t will ever use this knowledge or even have the need to know this? A basic understanding of stability would more than suffice. Its like saying you MUST be able to do celestial navigation!

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

What recreational boater on a vessel under 100t will ever use this knowledge or even have the need to know this? A basic understanding of stability would more than suffice. Its like saying you MUST be able to do celestial navigation!

What recreational boater needs a USCG License? The USCG exam demands more than a recreational boat would need to know, because it isn't for recreational boaters. It is a commercial license.

[Tugwit]

Originally Posted by CaptJimFrei

I recommend you join your local US Power Squadron and take all of their navigation and piloting courses,....

For extra fun, join your local USCG Auxiliary flotilla. You can get trained as boat crew then Coxswain and use your own vessel for on-water safety patrols....
.

If it's purely knowledge that you seek (and not a sticker or certificate), then I'd recommend the America's Boating Club (formerly US Power Squadron) courses:

https://www.americasboatingclub.org/...ll/all-courses

They are designed for the recreational boater, cover piloting and navigation using traditional (paper charts) AND using more practical contemporary electronic means. And celestial if you're planning extensive offshore cruising. Moreover, they offer several classes on recreational vessel systems (engine, electrical, etc.)... knowledge of which is essential to diagnose and fix the inevitable gremlins which threaten to spoil a day on even the most well-maintained vessel.

And while use of paper charts is often derided as "buggy whip technology", the deliberate mastery of navigation using paper charts provides the foundational knowledge to understand the benefits (and liabilities) of electronic navigation systems. Not to mention their role as a useful backup if (or when) vessel electronics go sideways....

The downside of these courses is that they depend on volunteer instructors and may not be frequently or conveniently available in your area. They are, however, very cost-effective.

The USCG Auxiliary also offers some relevant classes, although their curriculum is not as extensive as America's Boating Club.

[Sailshabby]

Originally Posted by Julesmic

Thanks leecea! I'll check out the course you mention. My husband did get his license but let it expire. On other forums I've seen lots of discussion about liability which does give me pause. I need to research that more. It's really about the knowledge I'm trying to gain, so im just looking where the best bang for my buck is. Both courses seem to be similar in cost. Thank you for your input.

If you’re concerned about the liability issue, you could always take the class but not the exam. Just a thought. Good luck!

[SV Coronado]

I've taken both ASA 105 and passed the USCG captain's license test. The navigation part of the captain's license test is easier than ASA 105. You're required to know several concepts for ASA 105 that aren't asked on the captain's test (I don't recall what they are; it's been a while.) For the captain's test, I received a perfect score on both the navigation questions and the charting sections after just reviewing my previous ASA 105 material.

As far as which one to take, I would take the ASA 105. You will learn more. If you decide to go the route of your OUPV, buy the ASA 105 material and study it.

[nonav]

Wow, this thread is filling up with loads of great information!

The thing I had to study for was day shapes and whistle signals, and a freshening up of charting skills.

The jump from OUPV to 100 ton is mostly hoisting equations, firefighting, and safety equipment questions.

PFDs, life floats, rafts, life boats, and so on.

I actually added some good skill sets to the knowledge learned over 53 years of boating.

One interesting thing I experienced during charting, was that parallel rules can rack a bit, inducing some error.

Switching to a good rolling ruler took all the error out of charting, and it’s faster.

Would love to learn celestial, as it looks like fun, and works when electronics don’t.

Wishing you a great life cruising the seas!

[Andrew Lippman]

My experience with the Boatwise captain’s course was that it was far better than “teaching to the test.” The experienced captains were quite experienced and shared lots of real-world knowledge. If you are an eager student and can ask questions you’ll get a lot out of it. Mere time with people who have a lot under their belt is worth it.

I recommend the 100 ton course and license. A lot of OUPV people are just there because they have dreams of chartering their own boat. The real learners want the real license.

[Ken of KC]

Julesmic,

With what your asking I think you would be disappointed in doing the Masters unless your going to do some part time paying work. Something cheap to consider that might fit the bill would be to contact the local Power Squadron as they offer a navigation class that is reasonably priced, can be completed in a few days and I think will fit your bill. It is a very informative class and may be all you need for half the price of the ASA course. If it ends up not being what you want at least with minimal costs you will get a huge jump start and have a better feel for what you need.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

What recreational boater on a vessel under 100t will ever use this knowledge or even have the need to know this? A basic understanding of stability would more than suffice. Its like saying you MUST be able to do celestial navigation!

Uh, calculating GM is indeed basic stability.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Uh, calculating GM is indeed basic stability.

Depends on your point of reference I guess. I am referring to the very basic understanding.

[GrowleyMonster]

I should also add that a Master or Mate license is a DECK Officer license. We pleasure boaters must also be Engineers. A more yacht oriented syllabus will touch on stuff that is not on the USCG Deck license exams.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Depends on your point of reference I guess. I am referring to the very basic understanding.

So, ignoring GM, within the frame of reference that you call very basic understanding, how do you measure stability? How much is too much and how much is not enough? Just askin. Not that it's important or anything... with a ballasted monohull with sails up and drawing well, the ride should be comfy enough and you aren't going to capsize in any weather that a sane man would ever sail into. If your keel falls off or you make a dope run with bales stacked 12 feet high on deck, then stability could be an issue. But again, GM is in fact the VERY basic calculation and factor in stability. All the other stuff, angle of loll, righting moment, other stuff that only a group of container ship Chief Mates talking shop would ever toss around without embarrassment, are not pure basic concepts, just practical considerations in a normal day's work on a vessel where it matters because it all changes.

The good news is you almost certainly will never need to know any of that stuff unless you are the Master or Chief Mate of a cargo vessel. The bad news is that if you claim to know the very basic understanding of stability without knowing anything about Metacentric Height, you are sadly wrong. The other good news is in this case, being wrong won't hurt anything. So I will butt out and let this thread stay on topic now.

[Portage_bay]

A challenge to those posters stating that holding a USCG master's credential holds you to a higher standard in a recreational boat incident. Provide some proof. Cite court cases where a credentialed mariner was held to the supposed higher standard. Show the CFRs that relate to that. Not "I talked to someone". Even if that someone was USCG. I've been inspected enough times to know that sometimes they are wrong. A thorough understanding of the relevant CFRs is good to have when dealing with the USCG. Vessel inspections, licensing and investigations.

It may be true that a credentialed mariner operating his or her own boat involved in an incident may be held to a higher standard. Maybe. Should be, but it's just maybe.

I've held a 'captains ticket' for over 50 yrs and never worried about it when on recreational boats not working for hire. Deliveries of recreational boats were another thing, I was getting paid, IMO my credential was on the line just as if I were carrying paying passengers. Maybe not, but that's they way I treated it.