The GGR race, discussion and news

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

There are always some people who decry this sort of use of military assets, but it is one of their best public relations actions, too. As well, the men learn more from real life difficult rescues at sea than in dreamed up exercises, because their hearts are focused as well as their minds.

Ann

Speaking as a former navy seaman I agree with Ann.. the real deal is so much better than going through the motions of yet another drill.. the adrenaline surging.. sharpens the senses and concentrates the mind.. and great recruitment PR.
He has my sympathy and I hope he gets off okay and makes a full recovery..
Respect.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

There are always some people who decry this sort of use of military assets, but it is one of their best public relations actions, too. As well, the men learn more from real life difficult rescues at sea than in dreamed up exercises, because their hearts are focused as well as their minds.

Ann

Completely agree Ann and I note we are dispatching both military and civil assets presumably co-ordinated by Aussie RCC.

However I must very nicely (&) correct part of your post the men and women learn more from real life difficult rescues...

[JPA Cate]

Great correction Wottie, and now, back to the GGR.

Ann

[Snowpetrel]

Looks like Gregor has slowed down a fair bit as the wind eases, or perhaps his precarious jury rig has come down. Another thought is that he is sleeping and can't get the boat to steer downwind on its own. At any rate he looks like is still 35-40 miles away and is not making any real speed towards Ahbilash.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Looks like Gregor has slowed down a fair bit as the wind eases, or perhaps his precarious jury rig has come down. Another thought is that he is sleeping and can't get the boat to steer downwind on its own. At any rate he looks like is still 35-40 miles away and is not making any real speed towards Ahbilash.

Yes, it's hellishly frustrating. My only hope is that those Yellow Brick updates are instantaneous speed and that was a poor moment but I fear you are correct. He must be exhausted and will have to sleep. 0.2 knots closing speed translates to 100 hours or more.

On other things, I wonder about Gregor abandoning his boat for Tomy. If Tomy were not in such danger would Gregor have planned to sail straight on to Perth? Or will he be happy to be rescued from either boat and therefore abandoning his own in favour of Tomy is no sacrifice?

I ran the thought experiment myself, would I abandon my own boat to save a fellow sailor? Of course, without hesitation. And I am sure most of us here would do the same. But it might be a difficult moment for Gregor, regardless of his moral stand on the issue.

I wondered though, if he were to run a very long line from the bow, back to Tomy's boat, perhaps the drag of Tomy's rig in the water would ensure the two vessels remain separated. Though, of course, surely one of the first jobs for Gregor will be to get the fallen rig detached from Tomy's boat.

Any maybe whichever rescue service comes to their aid will not permit Gregor to return to his boat. Not sure of the rules on that one, I know the North American rescues I have read about seem pretty firm that people leave the boat, but that might just be perception on my behalf.

Really not sure what I would want to do in Gregor's position if I were permitted to return to my boat. Do I have a stronger emotional connection with the boat than these guys, most of whom, if I have it right, purchased their boats expressly for this race. I know Mark Sinclair sold his superb S&S 40 to buy Coconut, which must have been a huge step and maybe makes his connection stronger.

I know, all hypothetical, but I haven't slept well thinking of those two out there last night.

[Snowpetrel]

^^ I think that's a good reason why we outsource many of these decisions and Don is wise to have called in the rescue services early. RCC is trained to keep emotion and ego's firmly to one side and focus on the evolving situation and best chance of saving lives, rather than thinking about issues like property, or heroic actions that can create serious problems if it goes wrong and suddenly two or more people need rescuing. once you get RCC involved a lot of control gets taken out of your hands, and maybe that is a good thing in many cases.

So at the moment, it looks likely that the Osiris will get to Abhilash first unless Gregor suddenly gets a boost. In a lot of ways, it might be for the best. With no engine, Gregor would have a very difficult and dangerous job boarding Thuriya. and once aboard he has to deal with a lot of unknowns alone. and it is quite likely he would lose contact with his own boat. If he was there now it would probably be worth a try, but the individual risks are potentially very high. and there is a possibility both boats could be badly damaged.

If I was on scene I'd like to think I would abandon my vessel and help Abhilash, but I am not sure any rational RCC would advise this course of action unless it was the only option, and with the Orisis not far behind it probably makes sense to wait for her to arrive on the scene.

It will be interesting to hear more from Gregor. It sounds like his jury rig is made with only one pole and is bending a fair bit. Perhaps he lost his other pole in the storm? and with no engine and a damaged windvane, it will be a long epic journey to a secure port.

One thing that always plays on my conscience when something like this happens is the amount of money, time and resources that are devoted to one rescue. It makes me uncomfortable when I compare it to the lack of resources often given to deal with starving people in many third world countries and the poor medical treatment given to many of the world's population. But I don't for a second think the resources going into the rescue are inappropriate or should be allocated elsewhere. It's more than when I see how well we can pull together and help people who really need it think the world would be a far better place if everybody was given the equivalent level of care. But I guess this is not the forum for these sorts of questions.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Ben, I know you've spent a lot of time sailing in the southern ocean, on racers and heavy cruisers.



It's certainly been my experience that I'll take a boat that can surf over a slow, displacement boat any day of the week in a big following sea. You?


I know that since we started sailing Rocket Science, my view of a F8 from astern has changed markedly from what it did on the old Roberts.



Granted, I've never had to sail in storm conditions on this boat, but unless we have some pretty bad luck, we feel like we can route around the worst of most systems.



Of course, now we're nearly back in the tropics, and our next ocean crossing will be in the tropics! Hopefully our worst concern on the next passage will be getting to the Caribbean before the ice cream runs out.

It's an interesting question and one that is very hard to answer. I guess I have sailed on both types in the southern ocean, but I've not done enough serious high-speed surfing to be comfortable with the idea of doing it day in and out. And I think an awful lot depends on the whole package, crew, hull, and gear.

At one extreme we have the open 60's but the level of skill, money, and discomfort needed to sail them fast means that concept is more or less out of the reach of most. If we scale it back to 45 or 50 feet and fill it up with cruising gear we get your typical modern fast cruiser. But the extra payload really hurts her ability to surf well, and the Autopilots and crew are often not up to it long term either. If we make the boat lighter to compensate we start to have structural issues unless we use exotic materials or sacrifice stability by reducing ballast, this can make a boat slow to windward. We can keep weight down by being very careful of the amount of stuff we carry, but this sometimes means sacrificing safety gear, tool's or spares needed to deal with issues offshore.

There are four 60-70 footers I've sailed South of 40 degree's a fair bit.

1: an old open 60. Aluminium. 60 foot long designed disp about 12 tonnes, actual displacement loaded near 16 tonnes. I can't say I liked her al that much. She was hard to control downwind and pounded viciously upwind.

2: a 62 foot charter boat GRP about 25 tonnes, cutter rig. A good boat all around, fast reaching and to windward. Not a good surfing hull, and I wouldn't like to try fast downwind stuff on her.

3: a 64 foot alloy schooner, narrow fast surfing hull, about 25 tonnes. again not really worth surfing as a way to make miles. but we had the odd surf up to 22 knots or so. typically this means it's time to slow down a bit as she got a touch squirrely. we made a fast passage but not by pushing hard and surfing, more from her good speed in the light.

4: a 67 foot Steel ex BT challenge cutter. 42 tonnes or so, not a surfing hull. But for me, this was a far more comfortable boat in nasty stuff, and she went to windward by far the best of all the boats. admittedly she was the longest and the beamiest, but the difference in seakindliness and seaworthiness between her and the 16 tonne open 60 was pronounced. The lightweight open 60 was easier to handle, but the BT challenge 67 would be my choice for serious offshore stuff.

I think Rocket science is an excellent design. Using lots of carbon fibre keeps the weight down and the sail carrying power up. As does the water ballast. I think if you are trying to combine high speed with cruising it's the way to go, but such a boat could be very expensive to build. Try to build the same boat cheaply from GRP with an alloy mast and it would likely be horrible. http://svrocketscience.com/technical-details/

At the end of the day, I think there are very good lightweight boats and very good heavy boats. And equally, there are some very bad light and heavy boats. In general, taking a light boat and loading it up with lots of heavy gear will make it a bad boat. Trying to sail a heavy boat downwind fast is also likely to end in tears. The two nicest boats I have delivered have been a Young 88 (8.8 meters very light surfing hull) and an Eric (32 foot, very heavy double ended ketch). Both very good boats in their own way.

It's a real shame neither of these boats seemed to be carrying series drogues, as it would have been very good to see how they went in this sort of blow.

[GILow]

Latest update has Osiris arriving in 2 to 4 hours. So close.

I note that Gregor has asked to be evacuated also, which answers my previous ramblings.

[JPA Cate]

Just two things, the first about having the rig and sails in the water, and still attached to the boat: when this happened to us, we found that cutting away the rig increased the boat's motion. Although the mast, in our case, had been bearing on the hull, for the period of time it took us to cut it away, not days, as in this case, it only abraded the gelcoat. In this case, the pictures made it look as if the mast was not bearing on the hull. My point with this comment is that it may be easier to extract Tomy with all the junk in the water.

The next comment was sparked by Ben, who wondered what the RCC would recommend. One time we were at anchor at Raoul Is. in the Kermadecs, and the boat in front of us in the anchorage's chain snapped (no snubber), and they wanted to come alongside our boat and come aboard. Jim refused, because their bowsprit could well have dismasted us, and then there would be two boats in strife. He told them to come up astern of us, and we would float a lifebuoy down to them and pull them aboard. They declined, blew out to sea, and we lost sight of them. Their plan was to go around the nearest headland and beach the boat and go ashore. With the thought that they might be in the water, we, who were talking to the guys on the Met station there, said over the HF radio (VHF didn't reach because we were blocked by cliffs) that we would go look for them. At this point, the NZ Navy had intervened. The annual supply boat was on it's way there, the frigate Southland, under the command of David Anson. He came up on the radio, and asked Jim if he were comfortable with leaving the anchorage to go look for them, and Jim replied, "No, but I'm here, and you're at least x (I don't remember) hours away." And we went out in the little cyclone, and we looked hard, and we did not see them, nor any flotsam. The navy ship, whose commander had gained permission to increase his speed to flank speed, and with a helicopter aboard, arrived about dusk, took one short flight, and then called off operations for the night; however, every hour, during the silent period, they hailed the missing vessel. By then, the wind had shifted when the eye went over, and we left the anchorage, and went to sea and hove to. It was an emotional night, worried about the men, hearing the hails unanswered. The next morning, the Navy rescued the two men by helicopter. They had spent the night on the floor of a cave, with leaves to cover them, and both were in good condition. The point is well taken, Ben, that a whole rescue crew is likely to be able to do a whole lot more to help an victim than an exhausted singlehander.

The issue of whether the other sailor should risk his own life, and his vessel, to save the injured man is one with which I hope I never have to cope. It is an undertaking that the weather would absolutely rule. I suppose technically, one should save oneself, but it would be awfully hard to hold back from helping IF ONLY ONE COULD FIND A SAFE, PRACTICAL AND EFFECTIVE WAY TO DO IT. [Little point in losing two lives and two boats, if it cannot be done.] As when Jim told David we would go, it was a conscience call, and had conditions been worse, we would not have left the anchorage. It was the knowledge that the two men might be in the water that was the deciding factor. When Alan Nebauer rescued Josh Hall in the 94-95 BOC Challenge, Josh was able to bring into his liferaft some food and liquid, and Alan rescued him from out of the liferaft. [The point here being that singlehanders do not generally carry food and water beyond their own needs, beyond some margin of safety, due to space and weight considerations.]

Still, fingers crossed for Tomy and all the rest, including the Longue Route folks.

Ann

[Don C L]

So I have been just following this from afar and thinking back to when we had to do a couple of back injury evacs out of the Grand Canyon, I am pondering how you'll get a guy onto a back board on a boat that's pitching. I mean, yeah it's possible perhaps, but if he is secure in a bunk and able to hydrate, they may elect to keep him there until things are calmed down. As far as rescuing, while most of us would willingly abandon our boats to do so, I think what he needs is a couple of Navy divers in wetsuits climbing onto the boat rather than someone less prepared who may also become a casualty in the process. I sure hope the guy is ok and it's nothing major.

[Don C L]

By now I guess everyone has seen the update. In the photo the conditions around the boat didn't look too bad if they were going to drop divers in there, in my extremely humble opinion. His condition sounds very serious.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Just two things, the first about having the rig and sails in the water, and still attached to the boat: when this happened to us, we found that cutting away the rig increased the boat's motion. Although the mast, in our case, had been bearing on the hull, for the period of time it took us to cut it away, not days, as in this case, it only abraded the gelcoat. In this case, the pictures made it look as if the mast was not bearing on the hull. My point with this comment is that it may be easier to extract Tomy with all the junk in the water.

The next comment was sparked by Ben, who wondered what the RCC would recommend. One time we were at anchor at Raoul Is. in the Kermadecs, and the boat in front of us in the anchorage's chain snapped (no snubber), and they wanted to come alongside our boat and come aboard. Jim refused, because their bowsprit could well have dismasted us, and then there would be two boats in strife. He told them to come up astern of us, and we would float a lifebuoy down to them and pull them aboard. They declined, blew out to sea, and we lost sight of them. Their plan was to go around the nearest headland and beach the boat and go ashore. With the thought that they might be in the water, we, who were talking to the guys on the Met station there, said over the HF radio (VHF didn't reach because we were blocked by cliffs) that we would go look for them. At this point, the NZ Navy had intervened. The annual supply boat was on it's way there, the frigate Southland, under the command of David Anson. He came up on the radio, and asked Jim if he were comfortable with leaving the anchorage to go look for them, and Jim replied, "No, but I'm here, and you're at least x (I don't remember) hours away." And we went out in the little cyclone, and we looked hard, and we did not see them, nor any flotsam. The navy ship, whose commander had gained permission to increase his speed to flank speed, and with a helicopter aboard, arrived about dusk, took one short flight, and then called off operations for the night; however, every hour, during the silent period, they hailed the missing vessel. By then, the wind had shifted when the eye went over, and we left the anchorage, and went to sea and hove to. It was an emotional night, worried about the men, hearing the hails unanswered. The next morning, the Navy rescued the two men by helicopter. They had spent the night on the floor of a cave, with leaves to cover them, and both were in good condition. The point is well taken, Ben, that a whole rescue crew is likely to be able to do a whole lot more to help an victim than an exhausted singlehander.

The issue of whether the other sailor should risk his own life, and his vessel, to save the injured man is one with which I hope I never have to cope. It is an undertaking that the weather would absolutely rule. I suppose technically, one should save oneself, but it would be awfully hard to hold back from helping IF ONLY ONE COULD FIND A SAFE, PRACTICAL AND EFFECTIVE WAY TO DO IT. [Little point in losing two lives and two boats, if it cannot be done.] As when Jim told David we would go, it was a conscience call, and had conditions been worse, we would not have left the anchorage. It was the knowledge that the two men might be in the water that was the deciding factor. When Alan Nebauer rescued Josh Hall in the 94-95 BOC Challenge, Josh was able to bring into his liferaft some food and liquid, and Alan rescued him from out of the liferaft. [The point here being that singlehanders do not generally carry food and water beyond their own needs, beyond some margin of safety, due to space and weight considerations.]

Still, fingers crossed for Tomy and all the rest, including the Longue Route folks.

Ann

Great post Ann, that would have been a tough decision, to leave a secure anchorage in terrible conditions in case they were in trouble. I'd also forgotten about Josh Halls rescue. a good example of excellant seamanship.

Anyway It sounds like Osiris is on scene as I type, and with luck it won't be long now before we get some news, hopefully good.

It's a shame Gregor is leaving his boat, but it's probably the right decision given the boats are in the area, and to have to organise another rescue would not be good for the sport.

One other point, Sounds like Thuriya's companionway hatch was open, and it looks like the whole spray dodger was ripped off and is sitting on the stern. his bilge pump must have done a good job clearing the bilge and keepiing the water level down while it was still blowing. He was lucky the mast ended up on the windward side, where it helped stabilise the boat and tended to drift away from the hull.

Another picture of Thuriya drifting on AMSA's page.

https://www.facebook.com/62033685131...1233238559237/

[Snowpetrel]

He has been rescued. A huge relief.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

He has been rescued. A huge relief.

And 12 - 24 hours to get to medical facilities on the island I assume? Still worried for him, though a lot less worried.

Oh, and they have to stop by and collect Gregor too.

[Snowpetrel]

He is conscious, talking and in a stable condition. That is at least a very good sign. I wonder how he got so injured. I did notice Thuriya has a fairly sharp looking half bulkhead midway down the starboard side. Being thrown from his bunk across the cabin onto the top corner of that would do some serious damage.

The tradewinds 35's have big round posts going to the deckhead where the half height bulkheads are. This would eliminate this sharp corner.

Strapping yourself into the bunk still has to be the best prevention. But if you are out of the bunk when a big one comes through you could still get thrown around the cabin. Are was lucky not to get hurt while standing in the open compaionway.