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Old 06-04-2019, 14:12   #1201
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Re: The GGR race, discussion and news

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I'm not saying anyone cheated. I have been involed in high level sports for most of my life. Its sad to say that even with nothing but pride on the line people cheat.... a lot.

Even more so when its easy to cheat.

again i'm not saying anyone did..... but i'm just saying
That reminded me that 40 years ago I was the navigator on a race boat owned by a Mayor of a coastal town here. He was a very successful businessman and had 24 rural properties, sawmills, trucking companies etc. On long ocean races when the motor was used to charge the batteries he would (accidentally) lean against the gear lever and put it ahead and swear a bit. It stayed that way for maybe a couple of hours. That boat had amazing speed in flat calm conditions!!!! I remained silent till now. He's long gone.
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Old 06-04-2019, 14:28   #1202
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Re: The GGR race, discussion and news

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Morgans Cloud is a promoter of the Series Drogue who unfortunately omits vital details regarding the true results of the 1987 U.S. Coast Guard report. The JSD had the highest failure rate until 35 to 50 lbs. of weight was attached to the device. This brought the performance of the series drogue up to the level of the sea anchor and speed-limiting drogues. There is no indication weight was attached to the sea anchor or drogue in the USCG report.


If you watch atomvoyager's video on YouTube you can see the bridle become slack and then jerk taut with the JSD. This is shock loading likely a result of attaching only 8 lbs. of weight to the device. You can also start to see waves break very close to the transom. In a storm this will become a problem with the likely result of the rode parting and waves breaking in the cockpit. This drawback to using the JSD is covered in the USCG report.



The continued JSD breakage issue is likely due to suppliers recommending too little weight for their product. Dyneema and Spectra shock load testing conducted by Zack Smith years ago, conclude this type of rode will not resolve the breakage issue with any drag device. You will still need to attach the required 35 to 50 lbs. of weight to the JSD or suffer the consequence.



Last week Zack Smith conducted drag device deployment tests using Spectra rode deployed from the U.S. Navy ship Sea Hunter. The test reaffirms Smith's accuracy about the use of Dyneema or Spectra rode with drag devices. The tests also reaffirm how effective a properly built para-anchor is at stabilizing a ship.
Exactly what is the point of this unsubstantiated diatribe? What is the relationship between deploying drogues of any sort from a ship and their use from a small yacht? Where is the data that "reaffirms how effective..." claim?

The very successful usage of the JSD by Nehaj is pretty hard to deny IMO, and so far no details of Suzies JSD failure have been disclosed. I have seen no info about the weight Suzie used on her drogue.

So, what do you expect us to gain from your post?

Jim
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Old 06-04-2019, 16:47   #1203
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Re: The GGR race, discussion and news

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So, what do you expect us to gain from your post?

Jim
A sudden desire to ditch the JSD and go buy one of his sea anchors, obviously.
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Old 06-04-2019, 16:58   #1204
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Re: The GGR race, discussion and news

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Originally Posted by picklesandjesse View Post
That reminded me that 40 years ago I was the navigator on a race boat owned by a Mayor of a coastal town here. He was a very successful businessman and had 24 rural properties, sawmills, trucking companies etc. On long ocean races when the motor was used to charge the batteries he would (accidentally) lean against the gear lever and put it ahead and swear a bit. It stayed that way for maybe a couple of hours. That boat had amazing speed in flat calm conditions!!!! I remained silent till now. He's long gone.
Unfortunately this is the rule rather then the exception when it comes to most things in life. Its amazing how many people will cheat from back yard games all the way to the Olympics, people will do just about anything for the win.
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Old 06-04-2019, 20:47   #1205
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Re: The GGR race, discussion and news

Since you believe the Coast Guard and Navy research results are "diatribe"; what's your explanation for the JSD rode breakage? How about the reports on this forum describing how cones on the JSD broke apart after one use?

Shouldn't we improve the safe use of all storm drogues and para-anchors regardless of brand? Whether you're willing to admit it or not, weight placement improves the function off all drag devices. The JSD just requires more weight. An average of 35 to 50 lbs.
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Old 06-04-2019, 22:30   #1206
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Re: The GGR race, discussion and news

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Originally Posted by Fi2010 View Post
Since you believe the Coast Guard and Navy research results are "diatribe"; what's your explanation for the JSD rode breakage? How about the reports on this forum describing how cones on the JSD broke apart after one use?

Shouldn't we improve the safe use of all storm drogues and para-anchors regardless of brand? Whether you're willing to admit it or not, weight placement improves the function off all drag devices. The JSD just requires more weight. An average of 35 to 50 lbs.
We have no info on why Suzie's drogue broke,so lets hold off on that subject for now, eh?

As to failing cones, when some drogues are home made, one has to imagine that some might be of less quality than others. Meanwhile, Nehaj lay to hers for something like 160 hours total (I can get the exact number if required) in severe southern ocean conditions... the same conditions that Suzie and others came to grief in, and had no knockdowns, rolls or pitchpoles. Susanne reports that she used approximately 10 kg of chain as her weight, chain being easier to manipulate than a solid weight. She experienced no breakage. She did wear out quite a few cones, made from fairly heavy nylon spinnaker cloth, and is just now busy sewing up around 100 new ones out of 6 oz Weathermax dacron, and with hemmed edges to help avoid the fraying that the originals had (only hot-knifed edges).

And I ask you again what the relevance of Navy ships use of para anchors might be for us with small craft of one sort or another? You frequently refer to such research but give no citations so we can check it for ourselves.

I have no dog in the fight, but a strong interest in real world YACHTING applicatons of drag devices. I believe that single point devices have their place in the system, but I also think that there is pretty compelling evidence that the JSD has saved a lot of boats over the years. Your frequent disparaging comments get tiring... they would be more palatable if supported by data that we can access from original sources.

Jim
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Old 08-04-2019, 16:05   #1207
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Re: The GGR race, discussion and news

Jim,

The U.S. Coast Guard report written by Donald Jordan is clear on what Jordan recommends for his Series Drogue. 25 lbs. for small boats and 35 to 50 lbs. for larger boats. A JSD with more than 100 cones will require the higher amounts of weight. Those who change Jordan’s recommendations without supporting research are likely putting sailors at risk.

Usually solid weight is easier to handle than long lengths of chain. If you choose to use chain, consider folding it into a ball to reduce its unwieldy nature. Online performance tests demonstrate the benefits of solid weight over chain deployment with storm drogues.

Promoters of the JSD suggest Dyneema rode might stop the Series Drogue breakage issue. Our data suggests this will not work. The U.S. Navy and NASA tests are relevant, because they reaffirm Zack Smith’s previous published research. That research shows Dyneema or Spectra rode can bunch up on top of itself while it floats. This can cause tangles and will often contribute to heavy shock loading once the drag device inflates. This might lead to gear breaking apart while using a para-anchor or storm drogue. Especially if cheap materials are used as you mentioned.

The solution for low-stretch rode deployment is to place the correct amount of weight on the device. Smith suggests sticking with Jordan’s recommendations already listed in this post for both nylon and low stretch rode use.

For para-anchors and speed-limiting drogues consider Smith’s following recommendations:

“Dacron or Nylon rode without rode adjustment for the para-anchor attach approximately 10 lbs. Use 10 lbs. for the Speed-limiting drogue. In more extreme weather up to 20 - 25 lbs. for the S-L drogue.”

“If you use low-stretch rode like Dyneema, weight placement bumps up to 20 – 25 lbs. for the para-anchor and speed-limiting drogue. You can potentially use less weight with the para-anchor if you incorporate rode adjustment.”

Please practice using this equipment if you plan to use low stretch rode and weight with your drag device. It’s also important to mention that many manufacturers do not recommend weight attachment to their para-anchor and/or drogue. There’s no explanation as to why. We disagree, weight attachment should be used in most applications.

From our understanding, forum rules prohibit a service provider from using “citations” if any of their associates were part of the testing process or wrote the report. This includes published research involving the U.S. Navy and NASA. Hopefully, the details in this post address your concerns.

Here’s some more published information on real world use of drag devices -- Lin and Larry Pardeys’ Storm tactics book (and video). The DDDB book written by Victor Shane. If you want more up to date information check out Randall Reeves figure 8 challenge online. Reeves deployed a JSD and more recently a Shark Drogue in storm force conditions.

The JSD was lost to rode breakage and the bridle Reeves made for the Shark seems to twist in calmer weather. Smith spoke with Reeves suggesting more weight added to the JSD might have prevented its loss and to shorten the bridle when using the Shark Drogue.

“The big secret is to remove as much slack in the rode as possible…to maintain Constant Rode Tension.” says, Smith.

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