Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-08-2015, 12:09   #1501
Registered User
 
SkipperMac's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: St. Augustine
Posts: 13
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
That's right SkipperMac, catamarans make such good use of their space, most of it is corridors.....

Except for the condominium part on top of the two corridors......

<<wink>>

But in general I agree - for the total volume and square metre-age of a same length tri and cat, the cat will have more 'usable' space.

But it's the trimaran I'd rather sail offshore.

But it does depend on what length you are looking at, for example, smaller trimarans have much more usable space that similar length cats - vis a comparo between a 21ft Farrier and 20ft open bridge deck cat like a racing Nacra or similar, (never mind the one recently sailed round the world by that crazy Frenchman Yvan Bourgnon).

I'd much rather have sailed a Farrier 680 than that open-deck cat of Yvan's on his journey. Man's a masochist. Oh, right, French... Sorry...

Once cats get over 30ft they have seriously usable space in the hulls and the trimaran begins to go backwards in the comparo, unless of course you're sailing a Neel. Having first won Lotto so you can afford one that is!

I tend to think of tris as more stable sailing platforms than monos or cats, and the compromise of the less total space made up for by the usability of the whole boat.

I think which anyone chooses is more down to what they want to do with it, and which is their personal preference based on individual needs/desires.

Despite the extra acreage to paint and anti-foul, I plumped for a tri over a cat largely because the tri's I liked can fold their wings and sit in normal width berths or on a trailer, providing far more options than a bridge-deck cat.

If money was the only criterion I'd have gone with a mono, as they can be had much cheaper than any cat or tri - generally speaking - hence why I'm finding this thread fascinating.

YMMV
Very interesting rebuttal. Hadn't given too much thought to the stability between the two. Folding the wings is a fascinating attribute I wasn't aware of.

As far as the size:usable real estate ratio, I'm currently looking for a 38' boat, which is why I have been turned off of the trimaran I suppose. I've seen plenty of cats that size with a gracious amount of space above and below. The only factor thwarting a purchase is that none of my powerball tickets have paid off... Yet

I haven't counted a monohull out, but I prefer the look and the feel of a catamaran under sail. Plus the roomier feel.

So I remain glued to this thread until I find something that suits my needs/wants and is of course within my budget. Many thanks to the OP for creating it many moons ago.
__________________

__________________
SkipperMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2015, 18:32   #1502
Registered User
 
Buzzman's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New South Wales, Australia
Boat: Still building
Posts: 355
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Skipper, I didn't intend my previous to be a "rebuttal", more of a gentle poke in the ribs....sorry if you felt it was more than that..!!

But as you say, a 38ft cat will have loads more real estate than a 38ft mono, be more stable, and probably be quicker if you don't overload it.

The main reason most of the record-breaking boats these days are big tris is the waterline length to beam ratio of a tri enables much larger sail area and thence more speed, Vestas sail rocket notwithstanding...

So a 38ft tri *ought* to be faster than both a 38ft cat and a 38ft mono.....but it will have about the same or a bit more usable space than a 38ft mono, yet have almost three times the underwater area requiring anti-fouling, and ditto topsides painting.

So a tri is *not* a budget choice, unless you can get one seriously cheap and do it up to 'offshore capability' yourself.

As cats tend to be more popular in the charter market, especially around the 38-45ft length, you're far more likely to find a relatively cheap, relatively modern cat than a cheap, modern tri. Older-style tris might not be the bargains they appear at first, as they may be rotten, may not be good sailors, and thus not have the advantages you hope for.

The folding tris I was referring to are primarily those of Farrier and Dragonfly. Farrier no longer supports owner builders, and Dragonfly have only ever made production boats. Folders seem to be limited to about 35ft, but the majority of those built to date are under 30ft - especially the Farrier/Corsair 27ft and the earlier Farrier 680 and 720. And they are NOT cheap, except perhaps the realy old early Farriers.

In the smaller sizes (ie: under 30ft) you DO get a lot for your money, as the speed difference of a small mono cruiser compared to a small tri is quite marked. But you want a bigger boat.

Cats under 30ft tend to be open bridge, and not comfortable for more than a day sail, although that's not to say that open-bridge-deck cats can't cruise long distances and offshore, as hundreds of Wharrams have proved.

So the main disadvantages of both tris and cats is the same thing that makes them desirable, all that extra beam, as it makes it *much* more expensive to berth them in any marina. Most charge at least double the per-foot rate, and double-wide slips are not as common as you might hope, which often means cat and tri sailors are stuck with the end tie, and cop the wash of every passing vessel and the chop from the more open waters beyond.

Or you need to anchor out in a quieter spot and then dinghy into a wharf or beach in order to get ashore for supplies etc. This can be problematic for less physically-abled older folks, like many retirees. And is a PITA loading and unloading from a bobbing dinghy.

So if the budget is *really* tight, you'd be better off looking at a 38ft mono, as it will be cheaper overall, easier to berth, cheaper to maintain and no more expensive to operate than a tri having only a single engine. It just won't be quite as fast.

But cats normally have two engines. So two lots of mechanical headaches. Or, on the flip side, a spare engine if one of them dies!

But also two hulls to anti-foul, huge mast, huge sails (ie:not cheap to repair or replace) plus the berthing costs.

So you really, really have to want a cat or a tri, mainly for the stability but primarily for the additional speed compared to a similar length mono. Faster passages, easier to dodge bad weather, etc etc.

The extra real estate on a cat is simply a bonus but, as I said before, lots of the below decks space is corridor, so they don't make good use of all the space until you get over the 40ft mark, where the hulls become wide enough to have decent storage and or benches built into the side of the hulls.

Personally, having been aboard a few, I wouldn't consider a cat under 45ft, but that's my personal preference. And I'd want a down-hull galley, not a saloon galley, as it takes up too much space and sefverely compromises entertaining areas.

But if it's speed you want, and a serious load-hauling capability, and you do want a trimaran, look more closely at the Searunner types, especially the centre-cockpit versions. A 33ft Searunner will probably carry more 'stuff' than a 38ft mono, and be more comfortable and faster....

Farrier also made a 33ft centre cockpit back in the day, probably the oldest of them would be early eighties, but not that many were built, so they come on the market rarely, and were the laregest folder built until Quornings brought out a 35ft Dragonfly. A farrier Command 10 came on the market in Oz last year in excellent well-maintained condition for an asking price of AUS$85K. You can get a lot of mono for that money in the USA.

But either teh Dragongfly or the Farrier 33s would have similar volume in the main hull to a 38ft mono, but have a lot more usable deck space, and the capacity to fold for either hauling out or berthing in a marina.

Certainly, an older tri, if you had the capability to restore it properly, and could live with anchoring out, or only occasional marina berthing, and could afford the triple-hull anti-foul, then a Cross, Nicol, Brown, or even a Piver would be a 'cheap' boat. Even some real flyers like those of Newick, Crowther and Grainger come up occasionally at a reasonable 'needs TLC' price.

Personally, I'd only consider one of the older type tris if it a had a beam to negth ratio of at least 70%, and preferably more. These days, performance trimarans have a beam/length ratio often in excess of 80%.

I'd aslo avoid the ealry versions with amas noticeable shorter than the main hull, as it's now well known that full length and full 100% buoyancy floats are required to extend the performance envelope and ensure maximum stability.

That's not to say the older boats are bad, just that newer boats are better. Practice makes perfect as the old saying goes.

Also be aware of the weight of the boat, either cat or tri. Some of the older glass boats were made using mostly matt glass and so are much heavier for a given strength than a more modern, lighter weight, woven glass fabric built boat. Lighter is better in multis as it enables more cargo carrying cpaacity, or greater speed, or both!

But if you want the big open saloon space of a big cat, then that's what you want, and that's what you have to find a way to afford..!!

Beware the early boats that had low side decks requring you to virtually (if not actually) crawl through into the hulls. Modern boats with full-width saloon cabins that have stairs down and decent head height are much more user friendly.

I'm guessing the above is probably not news to you, but perhaps for others watching this thread there might be something that they hadn't yet considered.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put you off, the more multis the better IMHO, but there is no such thing as a 'cheap' multi-hull. Even if it's cheaper to buy initially, it may cost a fortune in rebuilding costs, unless you can do it all yourself, and that requires a certain level of physicality and serious determination.

A sensible budget approach might be to hunt the ex-charter fleets in the Caribbean and Florida for an unloved boat that needs only TLC rather than major restoration. But unless the engines have been recently replaced or professionally rebuilt, budget for doing so and you'll get an idea of the way the costs can quickly blow out restoring a cat.

And of course, keep watching this thread, as the bargains do pop up from time to time.
__________________

__________________
Buzzman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2015, 18:43   #1503
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 165
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post

I tend to think of tris as more stable sailing platforms than monos or cats, and the compromise of the less total space made up for by the usability of the whole boat.

YMMV
I think Wharrams paper "The Stable Multihull" proved that cats have more stability in useful sizes, and this based on the data but if you want a number, say 30ft up

As to comfort in a seaway, Im sold on harryproa motion in difference to cats but equitable with short mainhull tris, but perhaps thats another story
__________________
ZULU40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2015, 19:25   #1504
Registered User
 
Buzzman's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New South Wales, Australia
Boat: Still building
Posts: 355
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Pretty sure Wharram, or more likely Hanneke, used stats from older boats, so when tris had smaller volume and shorter floats than they tend to have today.

It's now well known that, for maximum stability, tris need to have floats of not less than 100% displacement volume and more is better.

But to say that cats are more stable than tris is gilding the lily, to my mind.

Length for length, a tri will usually have greater beam than a cat, and thus have a greater heeling moment, and thus be able to take a greater press of sail for the conditions compared to a same length similar rig cat.

But both cats and tris suffer from the same 'stability' issue - they are equally stable wrong way up as they are right way up - so the trick is to avoid going there..!!

And that means reefing down in a blow and avoiding the hulls flying. And a cat has to reef sooner than a tri, as per the above.

But if the windward hull on a cat does fly, it's ony a short puff away from a total flip over, whereas a tri can completely bury the leeward ama and still have a wide margin of safety before the main hull lifts, and then even more before it flips.

The footage of a recent Gunboat 60 cat going over while pressing on during a race exemplifies this principle.

The other main issue is that cats when flipped are not as habitable inside as a tri.

In order to make a cat hull habitable, you need an air supply, which means cutting a hole in the hull, which breaches the 'floatation chamber' the upturned hull has become, and causes the vessel to settle lower, making the hull even less habitable.

A tris main hull should be kept afloat by the volume of trapped air in the outer hulls and beams, enabling it to float higher, and thus be more stable and more habitable in the event of a total flip.

I would not like to sail a bog standard cat offshore for this reason, as rescue in extemis might not be so handy or nearby. For charter sailing in the Caribbean for example, where SAR is never too far away, it's perhaps not so dangerous, ditto coastal sailing where I live.

But offshore? I'd take a tri over a cat every day. And be sure it was modified for 'inverted habitation' - just in case.

I even have some ideas about how to make such a vesself self-recoverable, but that's another thread altogether......

Let's get back to the cheap multis...
__________________
Buzzman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2015, 14:42   #1505
Registered User
 
SkipperMac's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: St. Augustine
Posts: 13
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

No worries. No offense(s) taken at all. You seem to have a much more solid grasp on the intricacies of multi hulls than I. I most certainly appreciate the feedback and insight. You might be catching a few messages from me with more questions as my quest continues.

As you said though, back to the deals!
__________________
Fair winds & following seas...

The Macs
SkipperMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2015, 18:07   #1506
Registered User
 
Buzzman's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New South Wales, Australia
Boat: Still building
Posts: 355
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

SkipperMac - all good!

But I'm no 'expert' - simply a well-read scholar of the genre, with a few mates who actually own multis.

Well, OK I own two myself, but only the Paper Tiger can be sailed atm, the 24ft tri is awaiting the construction of a dedicated building shed to complete it. Work in progress.

But I did all my research *before* I decided I wanted a tri. Including such luminous works as Jim Brown's 'The Case for the Cruising Trimaran'. If you haven't read it yet, it's a revelation, if only for his honesty in discussing the down sides of multihull (and especially trimaran) ownership.

It was from this, and an article on self-recovering a folding trimaran on the Farrier website that I decided against a fixed-wing tri and plumped for a 'folder'. However I have since had some thoughts as to how a fixed wing tri might be self-recoverable offshore as well, but as using the words "self-recovering" and "offshore" and "multihull" in the same sentence usually brings down the wrath of trolls, I've avoided posting my thoughts too much.

I actually decided my ideal boat was a Command 10 or Dragonfly 35, but as the former are rare, desirable and not cheap, and the latter is much the same, only even less cheap, I realised I'd either have to wait till I inherit (any time in the next 25-30 years), or lower my sights and 'go small, go (now) sooner'.

I had actually found a complete set of full-sized plans for a Command 10, which I'd be happy to share with anyone, as I've had them scanned, but having done a rough budget realised that I might as well wait for the inheritance as start on a project that big and that costly.

The 24ft tri I got as an unfinished project from a deceased estate. It's a one off, and was designed as a demountable, but I will be re-engineering it so that it folds like a Dragonfly. It was free. I just had to drive 4500km (2800 miles) round trip to collect.

And you thought Texas was big....

If you or anyone else wants to have a look at the Command 10 drawings, send me a PM.
__________________
Buzzman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2015, 18:29   #1507
Registered User
 
salticrak's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: palmwoods qld australia
Boat: wharram tiki 26
Posts: 681
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

A wharram Hinemoa for $ 15 au. Hinemoa, middle Percy lagoon - Wharram Builders and Friends
__________________
salticrak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2015, 20:13   #1508
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Fremantle
Posts: 232
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

15G which I would assume is 15,000


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Redreuben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2015, 21:13   #1509
Registered User
 
salticrak's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: palmwoods qld australia
Boat: wharram tiki 26
Posts: 681
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

yeah mate $ 15000
__________________
salticrak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2015, 18:37   #1510
Registered User
 
haiqu's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on Australia's east coast.
Boat: 'Keppelena' Hartley Queenslander 35' and 'Shenoa' Hartley Tasman 30'
Posts: 414
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Big View Post
Not too cheap, but comes with a house and a car!

Trimaran/House/Car


Happy Sailing!
On the surface this looks reasonable but it's fraught with issues.

1. The house seems to be on leasehold land (first 50 metres from the coast is public land, next 150 metres is leasehold in PR) but even if it's freehold a title can be challenged unless it has been officially registered for at least 10 years, which is rare.

2. PR has a high incidence of squatters and it's nigh impossible to legally remove them.

3. Right of residency for foreigners depends on proven income ($1000pcm of superannuation income for retirees, $2500pcm minimum for others) and requires living there at least 4 months a year.

Really, all things considered, it's not such a great deal.
__________________
http://www.cruiserswiki.org - Moderator

"The cure for anything is salt water... sweat, tears, or the sea" -- Isak Dinesen
haiqu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2015, 18:42   #1511
Registered User
 
haiqu's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on Australia's east coast.
Boat: 'Keppelena' Hartley Queenslander 35' and 'Shenoa' Hartley Tasman 30'
Posts: 414
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Best cheap multi I've seen was a Hartley Sparkle 28' trimaran that sold on eBay Australia for $1525 in April 2015. If my computer hadn't crashed earlier that day I'm sure I would have bought it.

Vintage Ad of Lively 28 Trimaran "Sparkle" Model
__________________
http://www.cruiserswiki.org - Moderator

"The cure for anything is salt water... sweat, tears, or the sea" -- Isak Dinesen
haiqu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2015, 16:40   #1512
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 24
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

In Panama -
31' Searunner trimaran

Quote:
31' Jim Brown Searunner trimaran. Originally well found but now needs major TLC. Boat is very rough but has great potential for someone who wants a fixer-upper project.

Includes Barient winches, all stainless hardware, aluminum mast, masthead tricolor and wind indicator, 9 sails, cruising spinnaker, poles, Lofrans windlass, Raymarine autopilot, wind vane, Whale Gusher bilge pump, VHF radio, Magma BBQ, solar panels, 35# Delta anchor and chain.

Lying near Boca Chica, Western Panama. Fifteen hundred US dollars ($1500).
Call 6818
__________________
RokNRich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-09-2015, 10:27   #1513
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: galveston tx.
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 2,881
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Cheap Gemini in Florida, $5,000!
https://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/5222666475.html
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-09-2015, 18:56   #1514
Registered User
 
Buzzman's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New South Wales, Australia
Boat: Still building
Posts: 355
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Man that looks like a good deal - if a Gemini is your thang...!
__________________
Buzzman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-09-2015, 13:29   #1515
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1
Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

What appears to be a half finished all aluminum Catamaran. Looks like he was intending to build a two story power cat. Cheep for the amount of work finished and could probably be gotten for even less. 66' Full Custom Hybrid Catamaran / Multihull
__________________

__________________
RussT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cheap, paracelle

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.