Why have keel preferences changed for cruising boats?

[JordanH]

This is the bar room argument again... is the ability to heave-to solely a function of the keel? There are comments above that indicate they do or don't impact the ability to heave-to. However, I would content that the hull shape, sail plan and rudder design are far bigger parts of the equation and that keel shape has less, and perhaps little, to do with the ability to heave-to.


Feel free to pull up a barstool and try to convince me that the keel shape is a big factor in that equation. Bring on the proof-by-experience stories. :-)

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by JordanH

This is the bar room argument again... is the ability to heave-to solely a function of the keel? There are comments above that indicate they do or don't impact the ability to heave-to. However, I would content that the hull shape, sail plan and rudder design are far bigger parts of the equation and that keel shape has less, and perhaps little, to do with the ability to heave-to.


Feel free to pull up a barstool and try to convince me that the keel shape is a big factor in that equation. Bring on the proof-by-experience stories. :-)

Loved it.

[fc59]

Cost efficiency.
Current hull forms make a way "better" use of materials.

You can still buy a NEW rustler 36 : https://www.rustleryachts.com/rustler36/

But the comparison with a NEW HR 340 https://www.hallberg-rassy.com/yacht...erg-rassy-340/ will be very hard for the rustler, even on price.

And a comparison (comfort & performance) with a way cheaper NEW x40 https://www.x-yachts.com/en/yachts/x/x4-0/ will be catastrophic .

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by JordanH

This is the bar room argument again... is the ability to heave-to solely a function of the keel? There are comments above that indicate they do or don't impact the ability to heave-to. However, I would content that the hull shape, sail plan and rudder design are far bigger parts of the equation and that keel shape has less, and perhaps little, to do with the ability to heave-to.


Feel free to pull up a barstool and try to convince me that the keel shape is a big factor in that equation. Bring on the proof-by-experience stories. :-)

I think that the keys to being able to heave to are:

• Enough power in the mainsail to drive a backed jib up into the wind.
• A jib big enough and well backed to prevent forward progress but not so big that it pushes the boat down into a fore-reaching mode
• An effective rudder that will continue to steer the boat up into the wind even at low speeds

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think that the keys to being able to heave to are:

• Enough power in the mainsail to drive a backed jib up into the wind.
• A jib big enough and well backed to prevent forward progress but not so big that it pushes the boat down into a fore-reaching mode
• An effective rudder that will continue to steer the boat up into the wind even at low speeds

Mine does pretty well but as you say the main has to have the power, or I would say the foot length, to drive the boat up against the windvane of the jib. Does a high aspect main have enough to fight against a backwinded jib or does it just keep sailing, on the other tack, more slowly? The older long or full keel boats also come with the longer booms, longer mainsail feet, to rudder the boat up wind. I can't think of a fin keel that also has a longer boom, but I'd bet they are easier to heave-to. I don't know, I've never tried heaving-to a fin keel and high aspect rig so I throw the question out there.

[boatman61]

The loss of the keel aboard Cheeki Rafiki, which became the subject of an intensive search, sent shockwaves through the sport. This was a standard Beneteau 40.7, a boat that is anything but high-tech. With around 800 afloat, it is a modest design with a reputation for being a robust and reliable workhorse.

Furthermore, the 40.7 is not only popular, but is typical of many other cruiser-racer styles around the world. Far from being extreme, this was a tragedy that claimed four lives aboard a run-of-the-mill cruiser-racer and struck a chord with thousands of sailors.

It wasn’t the first case of its type, however. In May 2013 a Bavaria 390 lost her keel 650nm north-east of Bermuda while on passage back from St Maarten to the Azores. In this incident the two-man Danish crew were rescued from a liferaft by a Finnish navy ship.

Before that there was the case of Hooligan V, a production raceboat that lost her keel in 2007 and claimed a life. In 2005 a Bavaria Match 42 lost hers as the internal structure pulled through the bottom of the boat. In the same year Moquini, a Fast 42, lost her keel off South Africa with the loss of six crew.

Indeed, so concerned is the sport’s governing body, ISAF, about the incidences of keel failure that it has formed a Keel Structure Working Party to investigate the issue. Part of the group’s initial work was to develop a database of the reported failures. Currently, the list includes 72 cases since 1984, and in those 24 lives have been lost – a small number perhaps when compared with the many thousands of boats that have been built over this period, but unacceptable nonetheless.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The loss of the keel aboard Cheeki Rafiki, which became the subject of an intensive search, sent shockwaves through the sport. This was a standard Beneteau 40.7, a boat that is anything but high-tech. With around 800 afloat, it is a modest design with a reputation for being a robust and reliable workhorse.

Furthermore, the 40.7 is not only popular, but is typical of many other cruiser-racer styles around the world. Far from being extreme, this was a tragedy that claimed four lives aboard a run-of-the-mill cruiser-racer and struck a chord with thousands of sailors.

It wasn’t the first case of its type, however. In May 2013 a Bavaria 390 lost her keel 650nm north-east of Bermuda while on passage back from St Maarten to the Azores. In this incident the two-man Danish crew were rescued from a liferaft by a Finnish navy ship.

Before that there was the case of Hooligan V, a production raceboat that lost her keel in 2007 and claimed a life. In 2005 a Bavaria Match 42 lost hers as the internal structure pulled through the bottom of the boat. In the same year Moquini, a Fast 42, lost her keel off South Africa with the loss of six crew.

Indeed, so concerned is the sport’s governing body, ISAF, about the incidences of keel failure that it has formed a Keel Structure Working Party to investigate the issue. Part of the group’s initial work was to develop a database of the reported failures. Currently, the list includes 72 cases since 1984, and in those 24 lives have been lost – a small number perhaps when compared with the many thousands of boats that have been built over this period, but unacceptable nonetheless.

Don’t disagree with many premises but remember Cheeki Rafiki is much more on the race side of things. I crewed on a 40.7 for inshore racing and while it could be cruised thinks like cockpit design, mid cockpit main sheet and traveler, and very high aspect deeper draft keel are a lot more radical than the majority of bluewater cruisers including the entire Beneteau cruising range

[Nicholson58]

Only a small percentage of boats are cruised. Most are weekend warriors or dock queens and most only go out in low wind and calm seas. Come to the Caribbean and see most Monohull boats are heavy old tanks. Typically, half are ketches or schooners. Ours, 58 feet, 1984, 40 tons, Camper and Nicholson ketch.

Boat builders build competitively cheap boats with minimal equipment and not much serious thought to live aboard comfort and long distance passage making.

[Ianau]

Typically, half are ketches or schooners. Ours, 58 feet, 1984, 40 tons, Camper and Nicholson ketch.

40 tons?

[Paul L]

I don't know about your Carib stats, last I was there I'd say the most popular monohull was a Benetau.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Only a small percentage of boats are cruised. Most are weekend warriors or dock queens and most only go out in low wind and calm seas. Come to the Caribbean and see most Monohull boats are heavy old tanks. Typically, half are ketches or schooners. Ours, 58 feet, 1984, 40 tons, Camper and Nicholson ketch.

Boat builders build competitively cheap boats with minimal equipment and not much serious thought to live aboard comfort and long distance passage making.

Oh c'mon, I've been to the Carribean, and my recollection vary's quite abit from yours.

I was in the Tuomotus French Polynesia last year and what struck me most was how few old " blue water " boats were anchored at Fakarava while I was there. I remember thinking "10 years ago this Anchorage would of been full of Tayanas, Hans Christian's etc".

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The loss of the keel aboard Cheeki Rafiki, which became the subject of an intensive search, sent shockwaves through the sport. This was a standard Beneteau 40.7, a boat that is anything but high-tech. With around 800 afloat, it is a modest design with a reputation for being a robust and reliable workhorse.

Furthermore, the 40.7 is not only popular, but is typical of many other cruiser-racer styles around the world. Far from being extreme, this was a tragedy that claimed four lives aboard a run-of-the-mill cruiser-racer and struck a chord with thousands of sailors.

It wasn’t the first case of its type, however. In May 2013 a Bavaria 390 lost her keel 650nm north-east of Bermuda while on passage back from St Maarten to the Azores. In this incident the two-man Danish crew were rescued from a liferaft by a Finnish navy ship.

Before that there was the case of Hooligan V, a production raceboat that lost her keel in 2007 and claimed a life. In 2005 a Bavaria Match 42 lost hers as the internal structure pulled through the bottom of the boat. In the same year Moquini, a Fast 42, lost her keel off South Africa with the loss of six crew.

Indeed, so concerned is the sport’s governing body, ISAF, about the incidences of keel failure that it has formed a Keel Structure Working Party to investigate the issue. Part of the group’s initial work was to develop a database of the reported failures. Currently, the list includes 72 cases since 1984, and in those 24 lives have been lost – a small number perhaps when compared with the many thousands of boats that have been built over this period, but unacceptable nonetheless.

I went to a survival course once at the RORC club house in London and after all the theory and seeing a liferaft deployed there and then one of the participants said "Now let me tell you what happens in real life". So he was one of the crew of Hooligan V. Very interesting obviously to hear him speak.

The keel of the Hooligan V was not manufactured in line with the actual design. From what I recall the keel was end-welded onto the metal piece which actually gets bolted onto the hull whereas it should also have gone through that piece. Not sure how to explain it better. The inquiry placed the blame largely if not entirely with the manufacturer of the keel which decided to do things differently.

This particular keel failure should therefore be eliminated as an example of how dangerous these keels are.

Edit: https://assets.publishing.service.go...ganVReport.pdf has the details

[chrisr]

similar happened to "Excalibur" in australia in 2002. keel had been cut and re-welded during building. subsequently fell off

4 died

the welder & company director at the builders were charged with manslaughter but eventually acquitted

cheers,

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Emoyeni

I was wondering if anyone out there knows why there has been such dramatic and industry wide shift away from fuller keels with more comfortable but narrow hull shapes in the pre 1980's to the fast, voluminous, but pounding shape of modern boats. I mean it's not like the cruising destinations are different. It's not like sailing is any different. And it's not like people can't afford to buy one kind or the other (even though bolt on has become more economical - people are still spending 2 million dollars on a new Amel 60, for example). So why has the shift been so complete and virtually unanimous?

A proper setup 35’ cruising boat with a full keel can cost $400k! Interiors are easily 60% of the cost.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Ianau

Typically, half are ketches or schooners. Ours, 58 feet, 1984, 40 tons, Camper and Nicholson ketch.

40 tons?

72,000 # empty, 7000# fuel and water, 2500# batteries, tools and misc contents. The main mast and stays are 2000#