Why have keel preferences changed for cruising boats?

[boatman61]

Boats have gone the way of cars.. everything for conformity..

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Boats have gone the way of cars.. everything for conformity..

Sure miss my old Citroen!

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Nothing against well made boats with bolted on fin keels. Some of the better builders like Pacific Seacraft, for example, build excellent ocean going boats that way.

In the 70's and 80’s heyday of classic plastic, mass manufacturers built a variety of different hull designs with full keels, modified full keels, fin keels, encapsulated keels, bolt on keels etc. Sailors had a lot of choices.

These days the majority of mass-production sailboat manufacturers within a certain price range all sell more or less the same ubiquitous product with the same design characteristic …. a flat bottomed boat with a wide, open transom, and a fin keel bolted through a thinly skinned hull supported by an internally glued-in structural grid. Why such a lack of design choices in this segment compared to decades past? Is it because this is the only type of sailboat sailors are interested in today? Probably. So, why is that?

Well, my guess would be that for many of today’s younger sailors, that’s all they know. Their sailing experiences generally come from chartering such boats and they have fallen in love with the easy handling and the styling of the spacious interiors of such boats on their charter sailing vacations. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

But to talk about mass-production builders’ advertising dollars competing against each other in an environment where the diversity of that market segment for inexpensive mass produced sailboats has been narrowed down to a charter boat build quality and design is to miss the forest for the trees. All the heavy lifting of the industry’s marketing has already been done in selling the sailing vacation lifestyle. Once consumers got hooked on these same types of boats during their sailing vacations, ALL of the mass manufacturers in that particular market segment benefit. The same inexpensive boats they build for the charter trade are sold to the general public with only slight cost effective alterations of their modular interiors.

This is what manufacturing demand looks like. Sell the lifestyle image, and the whole sector of that industry makes money. Sadly, sailors looking for an inexpensive used boat for voyaging 20 years down the road may have very few design choices compared to the huge range of shithole, obsolete oldies we can still enjoy

When I read this I couldn’t help but laugh. In the past few years Island Packet has won Boat of the Year Awards for their 349 and 439. They are both full keels!!!!!!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Greg K

...Well, my guess would be that for many of today’s younger sailors, that’s all they know. Their sailing experiences generally come from chartering such boats and they have fallen in love with the easy handling and the styling of the spacious interiors of such boats on their charter sailing vacations. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Most of the modern (newish) boats coming into my marina have mature owners who have been around long enough to diferentiate between older styles and newer styles and have enough sea time to know what they like be sailing on out in the ocean. It is not just youngsters who have only had exposure to one kind of boat.

Originally Posted by Greg K

...Sadly, sailors looking for an inexpensive used boat for voyaging 20 years down the road may have very few design choices compared to the huge range of shithole, obsolete oldies we can still enjoy

If there were many of those sailors around today looking for old designs in a new hull the builders would build them.

And anyhow, those old boats will still be there, and if the demand for them is great enough, sombody will be refurbishing them.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Happ

When I read this I couldn’t help but laugh. In the past few years Island Packet has won Boat of the Year Awards for their 349 and 439. They are both full keels!!!!!!

If you think that a Boat of the Year Award from some glossy magazine means its a good boat, you have a lot to learn about the boating industry.

[dfelsent]

It’s not just about the keel. One of these is an all out race boat with a deep bulb keel. The other is a keel/centerboard.
The hull shapes are very different.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by dfelsent

It’s not just about the keel. One of these is an all out race boat with a deep bulb keel. The other is a keel/centerboard.
The hull shapes are very different.
Attachment 235848

yep...one is designed to go over the waves and the other is designed to go through them

cheers,

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by dfelsent

It’s not just about the keel. One of these is an all out race boat with a deep bulb keel. The other is a keel/centerboard.
The hull shapes are very different.
Attachment 235848

Yes, one is definitely designed to be comfortable, the other one is designed to go fast.

[Don C L]

One is designed to slam going upwind incessantly, hour after hour, day after day, torturing the poor sap who was stuck with the forward bunk, rendering him a raving lunatic... the other, everyone snores well, lulled in to a peaceful, blissful slumber
ok, signed by a former poor sap

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

If you want comfortable motion at sea, sit on a log. My experience is that if you slow a fin keel boat down to 4 knots it is half way hove to and just as comfortable as a crab crusher. Where you run into trouble with a high performance boat is pushing it into a head sea. Going over 10 knots to weather involves being airborne a fair bit of the time, and you can easily break the boat and the crew. When I deliver boats back from the Transpac, I start out with sails with less than half the area of the racing sails, and reef from there.

I know of a Brother 48 Aluminum. It had the mast raised to 76 ft, the keel dropped to 8 ft. There is no part of the hull deeper that 24 inches.

People have said to me that it would be fun and fast to sail across the ocean. I reply yes for the first day but you would be simply beat to death by the time you got there and glad to be off her.

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Considering the realities of cruising, keeping the ends of a boat shaped like the Alberg light is pretty hard to do. Like, where else but a forward chain locker will the weight of chain and anchor be put? And with the narrow hull, keeping stuff out of the lazarette is fantasy (IMO).

Day sailors and weekend racers have lots of latitude in such decisions, but cruisers not so much, and perhaps these realities have lead to the hobby-horse reputation amongst our crowd.

Jim

Agreed 100%. We carry 400 ft of chain in the bow and 2 anchors. I am not sure where I am going to put that stuff if not in the anchor locker. We have solar panels, a radar arch a hard dodger, a generator, All that stuff is hanging off the end and it can't be put down below.

If I am going to race it I might not take 400 ft of chain with me but its not like I can remove a generator for the weekend.

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by Visarend

...and have bolted on keels -irrk!

My Idylle 51 has a bolted on keel. We took removed all the bolts and took the keel off last month and re-bedded it the next day with new bolts. Other than one bolt which had rusted too much to remove and had to be cut off, all the bolts were perfect. This is 35 yrs on the same bolts. I know that for certain. I have no concerns at all. I will take that boat anywhere in anything. But it is held on with 14-30mm bolts over a 14 ft chord length. It is not about to be come separated from the boat unless something really bad happens and then I will not have to worry about it.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

I know of a Brother 48 Aluminum. It had the mast raised to 76 ft, the keel dropped to 8 ft. There is no part of the hull deeper that 24 inches.

People have said to me that it would be fun and fast to sail across the ocean. I reply yes for the first day but you would be simply beat to death by the time you got there and glad to be off her.

Your reply that sailing fast across an ocean would result in being beat to death and that the sailors would be glad to be off of her flies in the face of a lot of the experiences of seasoned ocean sailors who have enjoyed fast, safe and comfortable rides across the ocean on a fast, good sailing, boat and who welcomed continuing sailing on such a boat.

Maybe you have not done such a passage.

[lifeofreilly57]

Early fiberglass boats were a reflection of their time, in the transition from wooden construction, which often dictated what could be designed and built.
Then there were certain offshore racing rules that dictated the mass market, unfortunately some designers pushed the extremes of those rules, which gave those boats a bad reputation.
The mass market pretty much dictates whats built, otherwise they wouldn't stay in business, the cruising market is a tough one to fill. there's not enough demand to keep a company in business in moderately priced boats.
My current boat has a longer fin keel and skeg hung rudder, which is a reasonable compromise between tracking and being able to get a turn of speed. It's comfortable in a big see and will still get a turn of speed. Its not as wide in the rear as most modern boats but still has plenty of space down below, although that requires going up in length. The down side of that is the modern boats that fill that deign criteria in that size are close to $1,000,000.00 delivered, which is why I have an older boat.
To stay in business production builders must build what most of the market demand, most of those boats will rarely go more than 100 miles from where theyre docked, thats reality.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Most of the modern (newish) boats coming into my marina have mature owners who have been around long enough to diferentiate between older styles and newer styles and have enough sea time to know what they like be sailing on out in the ocean. It is not just youngsters who have only had exposure to one kind of boat. Fast with a lot of lots of changing or maintaining a consent couse.



If there were many of those sailors around today looking for old designs in a new hull the builders would build them.

And anyhow, those old boats will still be there, and if the demand for them is great enough, sombody will be refurbishing them.

The new designs may be better.su