Island Packet 420 - Opinions?

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by Paul L

If you are trying to plan a passage that is up wind then the true wind angle is what is useful deciding whether you can make a destination on a tack or where you should tack to lay a destination.

Apparent angle is good for setting sails.

I'm in total agreement for passage planning. That is what is done to plan the weather window. In fact, less than 60 degrees, and we are either staying put or making a new plan. To a lesser extent, the same goes for race routing.

But I think we are getting terminology mixed up.

When a sailor says his boat will point 30 degrees into the wind, is he talking about true or apparent wind angle?

99 times out a 100, he's talking about apparent wind angle. In fact, I'll bet that most would not even know what the true wind angle even is.
And this is what A64 was talking about.

However... and remember, I know nothing about your boat.
Are you telling me that if you are planning a course of 100 degrees and the wind is blowing from 130 degrees, you would still leave and still have good VMG?

The Scows and Cats would , but I know the J-24 would not. Nor the IP's.

This is why I think that we are getting mixed up on the terminology.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by missourisailor

I'm in total agreement for passage planning. That is what is done to plan the weather window. In fact, less than 60 degrees, and we are either staying put or making a new plan. To a lesser extent, the same goes for race routing.

But I think we are getting terminology mixed up.

When a sailor says his boat will point 30 degrees into the wind, is he talking about true or apparent wind angle?

99 times out a 100, he's talking about apparent wind angle. In fact, I'll bet that most would not even know what the true wind angle even is.
And this is what A64 was talking about.

However... and remember, I know nothing about your boat.
Are you telling me that if you are planning a course of 100 degrees and the wind is blowing from 130 degrees, you would still leave and still have good VMG?

The Scows and Cats would , but I know the J-24 would not. Nor the IP's.

This is why I think that we are getting mixed up on the terminology.

If someone says their cruising boat will point 30* then of course it is Apparent. In this thread it was stated will point 30* true. Which makes the statement unbelievable.

. Are you telling me that if you are planning a course of 100 degrees and the wind is blowing from 130 degrees, you would still leave and still have good VMG?

I am a gentleman and gentleman don't sail to weather. But if I have to make the passage then I am going to use true wind angle to decide the best approach, as I mentioned above.

[a64pilot]

Jim,
I understand VMG, and understand I'm not accomplishing a whole lot sailing at that angle.
Seems however when I get to sail, I'm sailing to windward a lot more than pure chance should dictate
I was trying to point out that she will though is all, you can pinch to 30 degrees. I'd assume a more efficient hull shape would be required to make it profitable though, but that's an assumption.

Seems though that an IP will go to windward better than many would believe, and now I'm loaded down, but before I was I held my own sailing around the bay here with the Hunters, Bene's etc.

My Avatar was taken by a friend from their Lagoon 38, we were sailing back and forth across the Bay and while he was faster on the downwind portion, I was faster on the upwind, enough so that after just a couple of laps, I was a half lap or so ahead.
It's about the only picture I have of our boat under sail. My IP is no light wind boat, on those days I just crank the engine and motor sail, nothing I do will make her a performance boat, but I don't think they are as bad as people say.
I believe the newer IP's are much better than my old one too, thinner keels, more sail area etc.

[a64pilot]

I've heard the Gentlemen don't sail to weather a lot, but what do you do when the prevailing wind is coming from where you need to go?
I seemingly never get a following Sea or wind, I hope though that I am just paying my dues and at some point I will.
Sitting here now, waiting on weather in the Gulf to calm down, maybe I get to leave Thursday, if not then Saturday I guess, cause you don't leave on Friday?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I've heard the Gentlemen don't sail to weather a lot, but what do you do when the prevailing wind is coming from where you need to go?
I seemingly never get a following Sea or wind, I hope though that I am just paying my dues and at some point I will.
Sitting here now, waiting on weather in the Gulf to calm down, maybe I get to leave Thursday, if not then Saturday I guess, cause you don't leave on Friday?

I think it really should be gentlemen don't plan to sail to weather. That means not deciding to sail 900 miles to weather to get to the eastern Carib for example. It also means waiting sometimes a long time for a weather window. We just sat over 3 weeks in New Zealand waiting for a window for a 7 day passage to Fiji. On the passage we put in considerable easterly at the start when it was easy so that we could reduce the likelyhood of beating into the last few days of the passage.
Once you have left on a passage you sail to whatever winds you have.

[missourisailor]

As far as chain plates.
If you are in Fla or Annapolis, lots of places to have them done. All will quote for around $10k.

However, anyplace else on the planet...goooood luck!!!

The 35 is on the mid Atlantic coast and we have had three yards accept and then back out of the job.

The first one made a bid at $9500 with me supplying the chainplates. Which I bought from Garhauer <sp>.
After an hour into it, they decided it was too much work for what they bid. I asked what the bid would be now. No bid on replacement but offered to do the job using external chain plates.
No Go!

Second company bid it a couple K over factory. Still happy with the price gave the go ahead. After moving the boat to their yard, hauling and unstepping the mast. They too backed out saying there was a lot more work involved then they planned. Asked about new price, and they refused the job. They offered to pay half of the haul/launch and unstepping/restepping.

Third was about the same story. Only this time I learned my lesson. I spoke with the yard boss on my boat for about and hour and a half. Went though all of the issues and wood work that had to be preformed.
Told him about the other bids and their amounts. He told me his yard was willing and able to do the required work. Had done a couple if IP chain plates. But he would have to get back to me on the price.

Now remember, IP would do the work for $10k. Plus there was going to be about $6k in shipping cost and about $1500 for mast stepping and storage and truck loading/unloading. So anything under $17k would be a deal.

He got back with me a few weeks later with a rejection. When ask why, his answer was that they could not do it as cheap as IP. I told him I understood and asked what price they would do it for.
He was blunt when he said that they had better money makers in the yard and he did not want to tie up his crew for a few weeks on a money looser.
And then we parted ways.

Like I and others have said, older IP's need to have the chain plate replacement factored into asking price. But be forewarned, getting some one to do them outside of Fla and MD is going to be an exercise in frustration.

FWIW
I asked Bill Bolin (yard boss at IP factory) about the number of chain plates that they had done on the retrofit program. He gave me a number like a couple of dozen. I also asked about how many he knew were changed outside of the factory. No solid number but in the 3 to 4 dozen range.
I then ask how may that he knew of were indeed compromised.
He would not answer that question. But after asking fellow IP owners, I'm good with saying less than half were bad.

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by Paul L

If someone says their cruising boat will point 30* then of course it is Apparent. In this thread it was stated will point 30* true. Which makes the statement unbelievable..

In total agreement. Which is why I said we have a terminology issue.

I wish I was a gentleman. But when there is a good blow, I can't help but put the "bone in mouth" and push the boat to the limit.
All the while, the wife is throwing knifes at me with her eyes.

[RaymondR]

"After an hour into it, they decided it was too much work for what they bid. I asked what the bid would be now. No bid on replacement but offered to do the job using external chain plates.
No Go!"


Other than the aesthetic considerations, what problems do you have with external plates?

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Other than the aesthetic considerations, what problems do you have with external plates?

Many.
Among the aesthetic reason, there is also resale value. The two that I know that were done, both times a surveyor knocked the value down because of them.

There is the structural integrity issue. IP's hulls won't designed for external chain plates. According to "the factory" the cross member that spans between the vertical pieces is structural and distributes the load across a larger area. Some of the failures have been at or around the cross member. So simply drilling into and attaching to the vertical members doesn't really hack it when you don't know strength of the hidden stuff.
Remember, this method is done to save from tearing the cabin apart to gain access. With this limited access, you still can't determine the true condition of the plates.

FWIW, there is a well known yard in Fla that is installing their own chain plates which are of the multi piece design. With what the factory has/had told me, I'm curious as to what problem these boats will have in the future.

Also, with external chain plates you now have holes in the hull for the through bolts. Which all of them now need watched and periotic rebedding.

Something that most have not thought about is that when you install external chain plates, you are moving the rig outboard. This is imposing a whole different set of load to the boat and spar. Yes I'm told that the one inch of movement, does make a difference.

Finally there was the price. The yard would do it for 4 to 5 K. Way too much for a band aid fix.

[a64pilot]

OK, here you go.
Now I was cheating, I had the motor at 1000 RPM, but with no sails that only gives me about 3 kts or so, so a significant amount of drive was coming from the sails.
https://www.snapfish.com/photo-gift/...18070/SNAPFISH

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK, here you go.
Now I was cheating, I had the motor at 1000 RPM, but with no sails that only gives me about 3 kts or so, so a significant amount of drive was coming from the sails.
https://www.snapfish.com/photo-gift/...18070/SNAPFISH

Something is wrong with your Snapfish posting. I can't seem to get the main image to load. But the preview banner seems to show about 30 Degrees TWA at 7.2 Thru Water Speed.

However your data is skewed an itsy bit because you said you are motor sailing with 1k rpm. With just under half your boat speed being made by the engine, your TWA would have been moved forward by (and I'm only guessing here) 10 degrees.

Still, 40 to 50 degrees is pretty good while making 4ish knots.

[Paul L]

It's meaningless if you are running the engine in gear. That is like saying what the pointing ability is of a trawler.

[a64pilot]

It is sort of meaningless yes, as of course the engine thrust moves the apparent wind angle forward, in my world it was called relative wind (aviation)

However it is not meaningless when you consider that with just enough engine RPM to smooth it out and give good battery charging ability, I can approach hull speed and burn I think maybe 1/2 gl an hour, and to me more importantly the noise level is very low.
I have not measured fuel burn, that is a guess as normal cruise for me is 2000 RPM at 6.5 to 7 kts and one gl an hour.

I guess it's a work around of sorts, but it works.

[model 10]

[QUOTE=a64pilot;2418562]It is sort of meaningless yes, as of course the engine thrust moves the apparent wind angle forward, in my world it was called relative wind (aviation)


I can't keep the nautical terminology straight. Can't make a coment about wind without wondering if I have it straight, Nautical wise. It makes so much more sense in an airplane.

[missourisailor]

I too come from both a maritime and aviation background.
A lot of terms are the same. Others are different.

However most sailors will collate "relative wind" with "apparent wind". And "true wind" is the same in both.
AoA means the same in both, only in different planes <no pun intended>.

The one advantage that us aviators have over sailors is that we have an easier time thinking of our sails as airfoils. And thus on a reach and/or close haul, the wind moving around the sails is creating lift and thus pulling the boat instead of the wind blowing the boat.

What is getting some's panties in a wad is when opposite terms are switched. Like relative/apparent wind and true wind.
In both fields, they are not interchangeable.