Cheap/basic redundant bilge pump setup

[watevaworx]

Hi,
No sorry Farm Sail only read the original post , I didn't realize he had an outboard

[VinnyVincent]

Originally Posted by farm sail

do you have pictures or a diagram of how that would work with the OP's outboard motor???

LOL you caught that twice now. I guess it is good info for anyone who may be looking at this thread with plans to upgrade their system on a boat with an inboard.

My current plans are to buy the whale gusher urchin pump for a back up, with A64pilots basement alarm as a high water warning. Should be low cost, simple and very effective as a back up.
It makes sense because I have crew on the boat 95% of the time and probably 100% of the time if I am going any real distance.

[haiqu]

Personally I'd go with an electric pump with an automatic switch backed with a manual pump, but since my main interests are long term cruising I'm thinking of disaster situations. However I can add one useful thing to all the previous good advice.

At one stage I had a dual electric pump setup as you have been considering, and wired them both to the load terminals of my solar controller, which switches off automatically when the voltage gets too low, in order to save completely killing the batteries. This is fine for a slow leak as they recharge from the solar panels next day. Anyhow, what I didn't consider is that when two pumps are connected and both are running - as can happen if the switch in the first one becomes intermittently faulty - the load is enough to destroy the controller.

As this yacht was at anchor and I didn't visit for several months, I was greeted with water a foot deep over the sole on my return. So, think about how you wire that second pump! I'd suggest the backup pump, the one mounted highest in the bilges, be directly connected to the batteries.

[VinnyVincent]

Originally Posted by haiqu

Personally I'd go with an electric pump with an automatic switch backed with a manual pump,


I'd suggest the backup pump, the one mounted highest in the bilges, be directly connected to the batteries.

Thanks for that post. I originally had opposed the manual pump due to some false info I was reading about how many GPH it could put out.
It's actually quite impressive that they can pump at about the same rate as an electric pump.

There's nothing wrong with my current pump, it just needs to be re-wired. We had to wire it temporarily with an extension cord while underway.

My current plans are to rewire my existing pump with a float switch directly to the battery, which will serve as the primary pump.
I plan to install a high water alarm as an alert for when the primary pump fails.(thanks again for the helpful info a64pilot) My secondary pump will be either a whale gusher urchin, or titan manual pump. Haven't decided which model to go with quite yet. I'll work on it all this weekend. I like the titans higher flow rate, but it seems like it may be overkill for a boat my size and for my uses.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You can spend a small fortune on a high water alarm or just buy one of these.
I am admittedly paranoid of water in the boat and have one of these too as they are so cheap and independent of the boats electrical system.
Shop Basement Watchdog Plastic Alarm at Lowes.com

Awesome.... quick, cheap, disposable, local...

Originally Posted by VinnyVincent

Right???

Originally Posted by kenamick

Thanks for all the great info and ideas, guys!

But remember, the best bilge pump is a scared man with a 5-gallon bucket...

Oh... I disagree... It's been proven the 3 gallon bucket rate is slightly ahead of the 5 gallon... regardless of severity of anxiety...

[HappyMdRSailor]

Vin...

Have you thought about maybe sealing up the bilge space and utilizing a "definitively dual use" kegger pump???

I mean... we do have that space in the monkey love dungeon???

[VinnyVincent]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

Oh... I disagree... It's been proven the 3 gallon bucket rate is slightly ahead of the 5 gallon... regardless of severity of anxiety...

Three guys with a broken west marine hand pump, some duct tape, a painters rag and an old reefing line worked pretty well this past weekend

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

Vin...

Have you thought about maybe sealing up the bilge space and utilizing a "definitively dual use" kegger pump???

I mean... we do have that space in the monkey love dungeon???

With a Y valve to switch between the two?

The monkey love dungeon has already proven very useful as a "big stuff I hardly ever use/peoples duffle bags that need to stay dry" storage space

[antoha]

one problem with the automatic rule 2000 / 1500 is that the switch is not a float switch - instead, it measures the impeller resistance, for which it needs to run the pump for 10 seconds every 2 minutes. may be good under way with engine running, but if you leave this on for a week, you may come back to dead batteries.

[VinnyVincent]

Originally Posted by antoha

one problem with the automatic rule 2000 / 1500 is that the switch is not a float switch - instead, it measures the impeller resistance, for which it needs to run the pump for 10 seconds every 2 minutes. may be good under way with engine running, but if you leave this on for a week, you may come back to dead batteries.

I thought it had two modes? One that uses an internal float switch and one the is intermittent like you described?

[antoha]

the two modes are automatic (the one i described) and manual override - so you can connect it to the (ON)-OFF-ON switch as any other automatic pump with an override. it has 3 wires. the internal switch is not a float switch.
http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp...34227&id=84493
says: Rule Automatic Bilge Pumps feature computerized operation based on impeller resistance.
Pump automatically turns on every 2-1/2 minutes for approximately one second to sense for water

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by VinnyVincent

My current plans are to rewire my existing pump with a float switch directly to the battery, which will serve as the primary pump.
I plan to install a high water alarm as an alert for when the primary pump fails.(thanks again for the helpful info a64pilot) My secondary pump will be either a whale gusher urchin, or titan manual pump. Haven't decided which model to go with quite yet.

On the wiring setup for your electrical pump. There are, & or used to be, switches which allow you to wire the pump (directly to the batteries) through said switch. Which possesses a built in fuse. Such that you have 3 positions/modes for the switch:
Pump ON
Pump ON via Float Switch
Pump OFF.
Which gives you a bit more in terms of options, regarding avoiding things getting to the stage where your cushions are floating.

As to manual pumps. They're far from cheap, but Whale makes what's essentially a dual action variant of their Whale Gusher, the Whale Gusher 30 http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?...4230&id=157469
That is, it's 2 pumps built into one housing. So that, whichever direction the handle is being moved, pumps out at about the same rate as the Gusher. But also, if one of the (2) diaphrams gets torn, or clogged, etc. One needn't stop pumping to fix things, in order to keep evacuating water. As, with it being 2 pumps in one, there's built in redundancy.

And in terms of what to mount a pump on & how. What I was taught, was that the piece of plywood which it's mounted on should be sized so as to fit onto both the floor of; the cockpit, & the cabin. With the "trick" being, to have cleats mounted to both the furniture down below, as well as down low near the cockpit's sole. So that you can slide the pump's mounting plate underneath of both sets of cleats. Thus locking it in place, perhaps with a bit of assistance from your feet on top of it.

As, unless one were to mount a pump onto a plate of sheet steel, it's unlikely that the plate alone would be heavy enough to hold things in place in order to allow for vigorous & or prolonged pumping.

The other "trick" which we were taught, was to make sure that the pump's hoses are long enough to allow it to be used easily from either location. With weights, AND lashing cords on the ends of the hoses, so that they'd stay properly in place throughout the whole dewatering evolution. Be that minutes or days.

Also, make sure that you have a spare companionway board which has a hole in it of sufficient size for the hose(s) to pass through. Preferably made out of Lexan, so that you can keep track of the water level, sans needing to open the companionway in order to check on the water level.

[HopCar]

Actually Rule offers their automatic pumps with two different sensors. One type uses the method Antonia describes and the others use magic to sense the water. I call it magic because I don't understand it. They call it field effect.

Their new low profile pump does offer the choice in one pump.
Rule LoPro Bilge Pump

By the way, the method that turns the pump on is a very reliable system. They only turn on for about a second every 2-1/2 minutes. Battery drain is minimal. In a small boat where you can hear the pump, it can get annoying.

[VinnyVincent]

Originally Posted by antoha

the two modes are automatic (the one i described) and manual override - so you can connect it to the (ON)-OFF-ON switch as any other automatic pump with an override. it has 3 wires. the internal switch is not a float switch.
Rule 2000 Electronic Automatic Bilge Pump
says: Rule Automatic Bilge Pumps feature computerized operation based on impeller resistance.
Pump automatically turns on every 2-1/2 minutes for approximately one second to sense for water

Sorry I was thinking of another model, the 900s:

RULE INDUSTRIES LoPro 900gph Bilge Pump (Automatic, with Built-In Switch) | West Marine

Here's where I'm confused:

Pump has two settings: 2" or 1.3" turn-on; electronic automatic mode checks for water every 2 1/2 minutes.

What does the 1.3" or 2" turn-on mean? I guess I just assumed it was some type of internal float switch.

[antoha]

http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/files/LP900S_M-1171.pdf

i guess it's at which water level it considers "too much water here, gotta start pumping"

[HopCar]

On the new Rule Low Profile Pumps you can set the depth of water where the pump turns on by rotating the pump head. In a broad shallow bilge you might set it to turn on in 1.3 inches of water. In a narrow bilge you might want to set it to 2 inches. There are no floats in these pumps.

These are nice pumps. I think Rule saw the Whale Super Sub pump and decided to go them one better. The Whale Super Sub pump is a really good pump as well. It uses the Magic Field Effect sensor.

Whale Supersub Bilge Pump 12V 650GPH

I recently installed two of the Rule Low Profile pumps into my own boat.
I'm going to set one to use Magic Field Effect and the other to sense load on the impeller. I'll let you know which one I prefer in a couple of years. That is if I can't hear the pump turning on every 2.5 minutes. If the sound annoys me, I'll just set them both to Field Effect.