Four crew rescued from disabled sailboat off coast of Nova Scotia

[waterman46]

Having both a staysail and genoa on roller furlers is not a great idea. The big genoa does need to be on a furler for practical reasons, but should be fully secured before the wind goes over 25 to 30 knots depending on it's size. More than that, you want a bulletproof headsail setup that can be lowered and raised without any mechanical complications. IMHO any boat headed offshore needs a heavy weather staysail hanked onto its own stay, which can be a removeable type with tensioning lever.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Having both a staysail and genoa on roller furlers is not a great idea. The big genoa does need to be on a furler for practical reasons, but should be fully secured before the wind goes over 25 to 30 knots depending on it's size. More than that, you want a bulletproof headsail setup that can be lowered and raised without any mechanical complications. IMHO any boat headed offshore needs a heavy weather staysail hanked onto its own stay, which can be a removeable type with tensioning lever.

The problem with those is you (well maybe not you, but I) tend to delay hanking on that staysail because you don’t think you’re going to need it until it becomes obvious that you should have hanked it on and raised it half an hour ago. Then you’re out there on the foredeck and listening to your staysail thrash around as it’s raised. I guess if you keep it hanked on but in a bag velcro’d closed laying on the foredeck you could avoid going out on the foredeck when it’s nasty out there, but I prefer having it on a furler so it’s always easily ready to be used when needed and it can be reefed or furled from the safety of the cockpit. I can’t envision why I should worry about a jammed staysail furler. If it’s jammed only partially out, that should be good for up to some very strong winds, and if it jams while sail is completely unfurled, just lower it like you would a hanked on sail and replace it with your storm staysail.

[hpeer]

Jtsailjt,

Having the whole “what is a cutter” discussion elsewhere. It depends a lot on specific boat layout. Our boats are cutters with bow sprite, a large gap between Genoa and staysail, and self tacking booms. Because of the sprits the staysails are largish. When not in use the staysail is always on the boom, with the cover off when sailing, it will have a couple of sail ties to control it. Typically I’ll raise the staysail first, then unfurl Genoa as needed. Under some circumstances I’ll eventuall lower the staysail so it doesn’t interfere with the Genoa draw, light winds aft.

Now in the trade winds we are often at 20-25knts, staysail gets a workout while the Genoa (Yankee) sleeps. Up north the Yankee goes below and a bigger, lighter Genoa gets put on, lighter and more variable winds.

Not saying you are wrong for your layout or mine is better. Just saying even similar layouts result in different tactics.

[hpeer]

Still want to hear what happens to the steering. The picture of the quadrant/ram access was very interesting.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

The problem with those is you (well maybe not you, but I) tend to delay hanking on that staysail because you don’t think you’re going to need it until it becomes obvious that you should have hanked it on and raised it half an hour ago. Then you’re out there on the foredeck and listening to your staysail thrash around as it’s raised. I guess if you keep it hanked on but in a bag velcro’d closed laying on the foredeck you could avoid going out on the foredeck when it’s nasty out there, but I prefer having it on a furler so it’s always easily ready to be used when needed and it can be reefed or furled from the safety of the cockpit. I can’t envision why I should worry about a jammed staysail furler. If it’s jammed only partially out, that should be good for up to some very strong winds, and if it jams while sail is completely unfurled, just lower it like you would a hanked on sail and replace it with your storm staysail.

Good points. Sorry for thread drift, but on our boat we have the staysail in a bag always hanked on. The sheets are already led aft through their own fairleads. I like to move that forestay out of the way if I expect no strong winds and some jibing or tacking of the genny. I4f staysail had a furling drum on it, I think it would be a bit more awkward to secure aft near the shrouds.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Good points. Sorry for thread drift, but on our boat we have the staysail in a bag always hanked on. The sheets are already led aft through their own fairleads. I like to move that forestay out of the way if I expect no strong winds and some jibing or tacking of the genny. I4f staysail had a furling drum on it, I think it would be a bit more awkward to secure aft near the shrouds.

I used to have that arrangement too but didn’t want the bag on the foredeck all the time and found that by the time I realized there was too much wind for even the partially furled genoa, I didn’t relish the thought of dragging it out there and hanking it on and routing sheets through fairleads. So I can understand why you keep your staysail bagged and in place before you ever go out, so it’s ready to be used at a moments notice, almost similar to how a furled sail is but with the added benefit of being able to move it out of the way for easier tacking of the genoa in light air. Another option that was suggested to me when I was considering my conversion from hanked on to conventional furler that thought sounded interesting was to put my staysail on a top down furler so it could be moved out of the way for easier tacking of the jib in light air. But a friend who has his asymmetrical spinnaker on a top down furler persuaded me that his experience was that they don’t work well in high winds. I have no experience with them so decided to take his word for it and go with a conventional furler.

But as it relates to this thread about a sailboat with its genoa in tatters, all of these options we’ve been discussing provide a way to avoid that fate by having another, smaller, easily deployed sail available for use in strong winds so we aren’t tempted to try to use our genoa in conditions it was never designed for.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

A shredded sail on a roller furler isn’t any bigger problem than a hanked on sail that’s shredded is. It can be removed and replaced with a smaller sail just like a hanked on sail can. The problem is that lots of boats with furlers don’t carry any back up sails because they plan to use their primary sails deeply reefed. But for Luddites who find themselves “stuck” with roller furlers, the same level of safety can be achieved by having a set of storm sails with bolt ropes that fit in the slot in your furler.

Should a storm jib have a bolt rope?

Our storm jib is hank on with a separate dyneema stay. I thought the problem with a bolt rope is that in storm conditions the bolt rope can pull out of the furler groove.

We also carry a small 80% jib even for coastal sailing. I had a sail maker add a webbing strap bolt rope plus 2m to the sail extending it so the furling swivel remains at the same height and the sail furls correctly. The storm jib and 80% are small enough storing them and the spare sheets isn't a problem even on a small yacht.

Pete

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Should a storm jib have a bolt rope?

Our storm jib is hank on with a separate dyneema stay. I thought the problem with a bolt rope is that in storm conditions the bolt rope can pull out of the furler groove.

We also carry a small 80% jib even for coastal sailing. I had a sail maker add a webbing strap bolt rope plus 2m to the sail extending it so the furling swivel remains at the same height and the sail furls correctly. The storm jib and 80% are small enough storing them and the spare sheets isn't a problem even on a small yacht.

Pete

I don’t know about bolt ropes pulling out of the groove in a furler. Maybe one of the sailmakers who post could advise us? But if that’s a concern it seems to me that one wrap around the foil so the sail is very slightly reefed would greatly reduce the forces on the bolt rope/foil without sharply reducing the sail area or negatively impacting sail shape.

How long have you been using your Dyneema inner forestay and have you had any issues with the hanks causing chafing of the Dyneema? I have Dyneema runners and lots of Dyneema soft shackles and a short Dyneema strap I use to back up my anchor snubber and a few other Dyneema things I’ve made, and plan to get a long piece that I can use temporarily if I ever have a shroud or stay break, but never considered using it to hank a sail onto. I’d like to hear how that works out over time?

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Having both a staysail and genoa on roller furlers is not a great idea. The big genoa does need to be on a furler for practical reasons, but should be fully secured before the wind goes over 25 to 30 knots depending on it's size. More than that, you want a bulletproof headsail setup that can be lowered and raised without any mechanical complications. IMHO any boat headed offshore needs a heavy weather staysail hanked onto its own stay, which can be a removeable type with tensioning lever.

Same set-up for ours

[Jim Cate]

Furlers do have some failure modes... no argument there! But, have you ever tried to attach a halyard to the head of the staysail on a wildly pitching deck? I've seen folks lose the halyard under such conditions, and it then becomes a flailing bull whip kinda thing, not only hard to retrieve but damn dangerous.

Point is, despite possible furler issues (which can be mostly avoided by simply maintaining the gear), hank on sails have failure modes too, and the choice between them isn't as clear cut as some posters seem to think.

Jim

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Furlers do have some failure modes... no argument there! But, have you ever tried to attach a halyard to the head of the staysail on a wildly pitching deck? I've seen folks lose the halyard under such conditions, and it then becomes a flailing bull whip kinda thing, not only hard to retrieve but damn dangerous.

Point is, despite possible furler issues (which can be mostly avoided by simply maintaining the gear), hank on sails have failure modes too, and the choice between them isn't as clear cut as some posters seem to think.

Jim

Hanked on sails worked better in my 20s and when on crewed boats. Having a staysail on a furler means it gets set when needed, not 2 hours after when needed.

[fxykty]

I’m not sure, but aren’t storm jibs required to be hanked or strapped on and not allowed to be bolt roped into a groove? Or is that no longer the case?

Regardless, a furled staysail is easier to deploy and remove, especially with a removable inner stay. Messing around up there with getting a halyard onto a hanked sail is not fun.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I’m not sure, but aren’t storm jibs required to be hanked or strapped on and not allowed to be bolt roped into a groove? Or is that no longer the case?

Regardless, a furled staysail is easier to deploy and remove, especially with a removable inner stay. Messing around up there with getting a halyard onto a hanked sail is not fun.

If you are referring to offshore racing regulations then the storm sail needs to be attached to the stay with something more than just the luff groove
" permanently attached means, independent of a luff groove, to attach to the stay"

[fxykty]

I’m not sure, but aren’t storm jibs required to be hanked or strapped on and not allowed to be bolt roped into a groove? Or is that no longer the case?

Regardless, a furled staysail is easier to deploy and remove, especially with a removable inner stay. Messing around up there with getting a halyard onto a hanked sail is not fun.

[El Pinguino]

What I have....
whenever going offshore ... on passage ... whatever...
2 storm jibs ( I have 3 - 150/100/50 sq ft) hanked on one above the other and marlin hitched to secure them...... one most likely to be required first is uppermost.... halyard attached to peak and tensioned against a bit of small stuff.... no risk of runaway halyard...

If lower jib needed first simple matter of dehank/rehank....

Works for me... thats the 150 above - I think - the 100...