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Old 18-12-2019, 07:18   #1
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Help from Pan pan call

Hello

I would like to know if the boat which answers to Pan Pan call, has the right to ask for payment, after it pulls you to the port?
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Old 18-12-2019, 07:22   #2
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

Are you talking about a response from a professional boat, i.e. a towing service boat? Or a "good Samaritan"?
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Old 18-12-2019, 07:22   #3
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

I can't even imagine.
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Old 18-12-2019, 07:32   #4
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

Wow. Ok. I just lost my faith in humanity.

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Hello

I would like to know if the boat which answers to Pan Pan call, has the right to ask for payment, after it pulls you to the port?
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Old 18-12-2019, 07:50   #5
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

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Hello

I would like to know if the boat which answers to Pan Pan call, has the right to ask for payment, after it pulls you to the port?
No. The tower has the right to ask for payment BEFORE he pulls you to shore. Just as the person being towed has the right to ask 'how much' and to decide whether to accept or decline.

Towing someone, then demanding restitution after the fact is unethical. SalCon89, which addresses marine salvage, actually addresses that. If the vessel owner is onboard at the time, they have to be notified that the aid is going to be considered a salvage, before the vessel is salvaged.

The same should apply to a tow as well.
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Old 18-12-2019, 07:54   #6
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

Pathetic. Poor form and bad precedence for good seamanship on both sides.
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Old 18-12-2019, 08:02   #7
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

The other thing to consider is the legal ramifications. Depending on where you're located, such as the US, you would be required to be a licensed captain with a towing endorsement. You'd have to be established as a business, and would probably like to be properly insured. Your recreational insurance policy isn't covering commercial towing. Any damage you cause, you're liable for. Trust me, if you're charging someone a fee and cause damage, they WILL expect to be made whole again.

Lack of any of this would make collecting fees for such services illegal.
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Old 18-12-2019, 08:35   #8
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

What are the legal burdens placed upon a vessel that hears the Pan Pan call?
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Old 18-12-2019, 09:06   #9
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

In the US, you can't ask for or receive money unless you have an assistance towing endorsement or I believe a 300 T license.
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Old 18-12-2019, 10:12   #10
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

The rational of a Pan Pan call is to notify all stations that you require advice or assistance in a situation that has the potential to become an emergency. The chief differences between a call to the coast guard and a Pan Pan call is that it is a request to all stations and it calls for radio silence. I would normally expect a towing/salvage company to route through the coast guard. If there is no coast guard response or other co-coordinating station involved it would seem quite reasonable for a towing company to contact you directly to offer services. A big difference between Pan Pan and Mayday is that a Pan Pan does not create an obligation for other vessels to assist. In a Mayday a tow service would be obliged to respond and pick up the crew (but not rescue the boat) and would not expect a fee for that but would be entitled to a salvage fee if the also towed the boat because you are considered to have abandoned ship. In a Pan Pan you are not requesting to be taken off and have not abandoned ship so they should simply be offering assistance as a commercial tow and it is up to you to accept or not.

If another vessel offers assistance and then demands money once you are in dock I think that is totally unacceptable. There is however a but, in the salvage rules it is quite clear that if you accept a tow line from a salvage vessel a contract for salvage is deemed to exist. If you provide the tow line to the other vessel there is no contract. So if you allow the crew from the other vessel to board and set up there tow line you have been salvaged. if you trow them your own tow line you have not been salvaged. Any salvage fee also takes into account the danger to the vessel salvage. So if you are in a situation where the boat can reasonably be expected to be a total loss but for the salvage teams assistance a full fee can be due and then pro-rota depending on the degree of danger. It gets quite complicated so if someone is claiming salvage on your boat it should go through the receiver of wreck (UK) or similar in other countries.
From your post however I think this sounds like you called a Pan Pan, another private vessel came to you assistance and towed you in but where not a commercial towing company and have not claimed salvage. I think it is reasonable for you to offer to pay costs too them for fuel used and any other expenses. It may be that that is what they are actually asking for but put it very badly!
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Old 18-12-2019, 10:16   #11
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Re: Help from Pan pan c

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Originally Posted by S/V Adeline View Post
What are the legal burdens placed upon a vessel that hears the Pan Pan call?

Itís my understanding that if able, your required to render assistance.
By if able I believe that means to say that a pleasure sailboat may not have to come to the aid of a ship that has lost power but is in no other distress, cause what could you do? If they are sinking you could be a lifeboat, but thatís probably not a PanPan.

I canít quote chapter and verse of where your required to render aid, nor can I tell you what the effect would be if you didnít.
Itís my belief that Professional Mariners donít expect much from pleasure craft, and probably for good reasons.
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Old 18-12-2019, 10:21   #12
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

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Originally Posted by pr2501 View Post
Hello

I would like to know if the boat which answers to Pan Pan call, has the right to ask for payment, after it pulls you to the port?
I towed a little boat that had capsized back to the dock in Panama City Fl, they didn't have Seatow or Boat US Insurence or money, I was followed closely by two FWC boats that were better equipped to tow than I was, but who did not offer to render any aid. They were bigger boats with more power etc.
Really ticked me off, and I found out later that maybe they were following to make sure I didn’t take any money, I heard later that it’s a big time fine if you do, I’m sure Boat US and Seatow may have something to do with that too, before they came into existence it was very common for the local law boat to tow you, or the USCG rarely.
But now it seems FWC will only sit back and watch, looking for infractions.

Now what’s interesting to me is that a boat is required by law to render aid to a boat in distress, isn’t it?
But Seatow sits back and renders no aid unless Money changes hand first? How is that?
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Old 18-12-2019, 10:21   #13
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

https://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/e-...d-salvage.aspx

I would read this first
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Old 18-12-2019, 10:49   #14
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post

Now whatís interesting to me is that a boat is required by law to render aid to a boat in distress, isnít it?
But Seatow sits back and renders no aid unless Money changes hand first? How is that?
PanPan is not a distress call (to a distress call you are legally bound to respond, free of any charge. But only to save souls, not property).
The one who renders assisstance may ask for payment.
If he is legally entitled to get money for marine jobs is a separate question.
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Old 18-12-2019, 10:50   #15
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Re: Help from Pan pan call

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
In the US, you can't ask for or receive money unless you have an assistance towing endorsement or I believe a 300 T license.
You don't even need a tow boat operators license if the tow boat is 24' or less.
That's why you see so many steel mules made at 24' or ribs with a towing bitt at 24".
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