Four crew rescued from disabled sailboat off coast of Nova Scotia

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by MartinR

A shredded sail on a furler is a big problem if partially furled. If the furler is stuck, the only way to get the sail down is to wrap it around the foil by hand. Not easily doable in strong winds. Been there, done that.

that's why I like my storm jib it goes over the furled genny with soft shackles
Faster to deploy and helps hold the big sail furled.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

The problem is that lots of boats with furlers don’t carry any back up sails because they plan to use their primary sails deeply reefed...

The problem is more complex and more basic than that.

Many cruising boats with roller furling carry a large genoa on the furler. Not only is it big, it is likely much lighter cloth than a storm sail, or even a proper working jib. To complicate matters, even if they have a smaller sail to hoist in the furler, the big one has to be unfurled and dropped, meaning someone on the foredeck and a very large, light weight sail to deal with. AND, the genoa probably has not been down for a while and it won't come down easily.

So, all in all, changing down to a smaller sail on a typical boat in storm conditions is not going to be an easy or safe proposition.

The proper way, in my opinion, is to change to a small headsail, on the furler, before you encounter heavy weather. If the wind comes up when you are using the genoa you should drop that big sail early and set the small one.

If you simply roll it up you are screwed if the wind keeps building. It will be much harder to get it down later and being light it is more likely to get shredded.

And this leaves out the possibility of a jammed furled, which is more likely if you are trying to deal with a big sail in rough and windy conditions.

So the seamanlike approach is to keep a smaller sail on the furler, one that you can carry partially furled in 30-40 knots of wind, and make sure your furler is in good working order and the sails go up and down easily (keep the foil and luff tape cleaned and lubricated).

Point two. In heavy weather, on most any relatively modern boat, with a deeply reefed mainsail and a small jib you will ably handle very severe weather. Rolling in the jib entirely, (well secured), and continuing with a 3rd reefed mainsail, perhaps with some motor assist, will allow you to survive up to and including storm conditions. Keeping your boat balanced and moving under sail power (reduced sail power) relieves a lot of load on the autopilot.

A modern boat, properly equipped and managed, even with roller furling, baring some serious mechanical failures such as steering, can take conditions much worse than the crew usually can or want to.

I still want to know more about this boat Makena which was abandoned. What exactly happened to the steering and the jib?

[SuW]

Most of the destroyed roller furler sails I have seen have been blown out while unattended at the dock or on the hard*. None were pretty afterwards.

Tie something around the furled sail, folks...and attend to the stitching on the UV cover...that will fail first and it was the reason my friends' sail started unraveling and needed extensive repairs.

*Don't do this. Take the sails and canvas off when you store your boat...

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by MartinR

A shredded sail on a furler is a big problem if partially furled. If the furler is stuck, the only way to get the sail down is to wrap it around the foil by hand. Not easily doable in strong winds. Been there, done that.

Yes, but by having a jammed furler you’ve added another very rare malfunction to our shredded sail problem. In high winds, as you say, it’s likely to be partially fueled but it’s quite a special case that the cause of it shredding is that the furler is jammed. In that case I can understand how difficult that would be to deal with it. But I think it’s much more likely that the cause of most shredded sails is human error rather than a mechanical failure of the furler. As long as the furler will turn the shredded sail can be removed similarly to the way a hanked on sail would be.

[jtsailjt]

Wingsail, I won’t quote your long post above but as you and I both said, the problem starts with having much too big a sail on the furler for the conditions with no other sailing option than to attempt to sail with it mostly furled, leading to it getting shredded. I said people tend to find themself in this situation because they have no other options onboard and that’s the root of their problem. If they did have a smaller sail available they might well have removed their Genoa in favor of their smaller sail before the winds became quite so strong, just like a boat with hanked on sails would. But most roller furling equipped boats don’t carry a second set of sails so they carry on with a handkerchief sized portion of their Genoa unfurled and flogging unmercifully due to its terrible shape.

Another good option, besides removing/replacing a too big jib in difficult conditions is to have a staysail on a furler so you aren’t tempted to try to sail in strong winds with your jib 80% furled, leading to its shredding. I have both a staysail that’s kept on the furler and a storm staysail that’s stored below, so I have no temptation to expose my 110% jib to winds that might cause it to shred. So, if a change of sails is needed due to very strong winds, it’ll be the much more manageably sized staysail that is on deck rather than a full sized jib.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Yes, but by having a jammed furler you’ve added another very rare malfunction to our shredded sail problem. In high winds, as you say, it’s likely to be partially fueled but it’s quite a special case that the cause of it shredding is that the furler is jammed...

I'm not so sure this is rare, as any small furler issue can become a huge issue when the the forces climb in a storm. (maybe I'm just unlucky?) I've often wondered why furlers (and their set screws!) seem to have mechanical engineering appropriate for no more than a strong breeze.
I'm now looking at solutions for storm sails that "hank on" to a furled head sail like a Banner Bay Storm-Bag, or an ATN Gale Sail. Maybe over-thinking this...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Yes, but by having a jammed furler you’ve added another very rare malfunction to our shredded sail problem. In high winds, as you say, it’s likely to be partially fueled but it’s quite a special case that the cause of it shredding is that the furler is jammed. .........

In my experience a majority of 'jammed furlers' involve wrapping a loose spin halyard into the sail being furled..... which is why mine is always brought back to the mast and cranked down hard when not in use.....

Moving on to the size of the furling headsail.... I have two.... a big one and a little one.....
The big one is three and a half years old and has had 3 days use..... it may come out of its bag again next time I am north of 40*S..... depends whether I am east or west of the Andes...

I also have an inner forestay and hanked on storm jibs.... at the very least I would want a furling staysail if going on any serious sea voyage.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by cyan

I'm not so sure this is rare, as any small furler issue can become a huge issue when the the forces climb in a storm. (maybe I'm just unlucky?) I've often wondered why furlers (and their set screws!) seem to have mechanical engineering appropriate for no more than a strong breeze.
I'm now looking at solutions for storm sails that "hank on" to a furled head sail like a Banner Bay Storm-Bag, or an ATN Gale Sail. Maybe over-thinking this...

I’m curious, how exactly have your furlers failed in such a way that you couldn’t furl or lower the sail? They’re pretty simple devices. Unless you tangled a spare halyard as you furled the sail, what failed furler part caused it to both not furl or allow you to lower the sail as you would a hanked on sail?

[hpeer]

Coming late to the conversation.

We have cutters. Furled Genoa and hanked on staysail on both. The staysail in the 44’er is quite large, but has a reefing point. Our main has only two reef points, when I replace it I will go for an extra point. But we do have a trisail in a separate track.

I’ve had my furler jam 3 ways.
1-By having the halyard wrap at the top of the stay, which should not occur anymore. Needed to restrain the halyard.
2-By letting out the sail too fast you can get a birds nest on the drum which is very difficult to sort out.
3-And once in a training situation while tacking I somehow got a the sail to somehow wrap the foil. Don’t ask, I don’t know. It was a prolonged muffed tack, took many 4 letter words to sort out. Damn near my entire vocabulary.

[hpeer]

I just glossed the entire thread and may have missed something, apologize if I did.

Here are my comments.

1- Anywhere remotely near “260 miles SE of Halifax” puts the boat out in the Gulf Stream or beyond. I would expect mild air and water temperatures.

2- I’m assuming a NE wind which would create, if they were in the stream, short, steep waves.

3- I sail a fair bit in “iceberg alley.” This ain’t it. NO ICEBERGS. Iceberg alley is in the NE coast if Newfoundland, Labrador Sea. They are created in Greenland, float down past Baffin Island and Labrador, then past Newfoundland and onto the Grand Banks, 700 or so miles ENE of Halifax The odd one gets through the Straits of Bell Isle. This occurs in the spring and early summer. They are gone by July. I think if you look at the pilot charts for this area it will make my point abundantly clear.

I looked at these Hanse 495 boats on Yachtworld, there were 7 or so listed, all 2010 to 2012, with prices from $250k to $350k roughly. Three in Croatia, all on the low end. I don’t follow prices much so much so I’m curious. Seems like a low price for a late model big boat. Seems like a lot of disparity in prices. Why is Croatia so low?

[boatman61]

Would this not be in the area affected by the meeting of the Labrador and Gulf Stream.. aka the N Wall.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Would this not be in the area affected by the meeting of the Labrador and Gulf Stream.. aka the N Wall.

I’m not familiar with the term “North Wall” but as I recall that would be closer to the SE corner of Newfoundland. The Lab current sweeps down and a bit of it hugs the coast of Nova Scotia, and much further South at least to New Jersey. But more sweeps across the banks. I think where they collide is on the edge of the continental shelf. But this boat, if location is correct from the map, should have been far South if this convergence.

Long answer for “I don’t know.”

[cyan]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I’m curious, how exactly have your furlers failed in such a way that you couldn’t furl or lower the sail? They’re pretty simple devices. Unless you tangled a spare halyard as you furled the sail, what failed furler part caused it to both not furl or allow you to lower the sail as you would a hanked on sail?

Older Harken, rebuilt once. Works great except It just wouldn't turn well in higher winds, up to NOT turning in really high wind. (prolly needs more work)
I had a similar problem on a racing boat, different furler model.
It feels like many furlers are undersized, considering that the forces involved go up exponentially with wind velocity. No, you don't PLAN on using it above 30 knots, but not everything about sailing can be planned in my experience.

[Kolchac]

About de-mast: when I enlarged the photo, I could see some lines near the mast, which look like shrouds flying around. I'm pretty sure they lost 2 or 3 ones and the boat was potentially de-masted, and decision to leave the boat was correct.
About the skipper: crude mistake to use furling jib at such weather. Looks like they also have broken self-tacking boom.
The see is really rough. From my experience every 10-15 min comes group of 2-5 waves ~100% higher than average, moreover, on pictures they look unrealistically small.
Why did they go during winter? Smugglers? Extreme sport?

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Kolchac

About de-mast: when I enlarged the photo, I could see some lines near the mast, which look like shrouds flying around. I'm pretty sure they lost 2 or 3 ones and the boat was potentially de-masted, and decision to leave the boat was correct.
About the skipper: crude mistake to use furling jib at such weather. Looks like they also have broken self-tacking boom.
The see is really rough. From my experience every 10-15 min comes group of 2-5 waves ~100% higher than average, moreover, on pictures they look unrealistically small.
Why did they go during winter? Smugglers? Extreme sport?

I think what you see is the lazy jacks flying. The cap shrouds are in place, clearly seen. The rest, not possible to say. No jury stays rigged, they would be clearly visible.

Just to make a point, the ripped genua is partially furled. I bet on the furler jamming. Happened to me, the loads exceed what the (torlon) ball bearings can take, especially when a sail starts to flog in heavy winds, one ball breaks, nothing moves any more. Bit of a mess to sort out