Paper Charts or Just Electronic

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Generally the best way BUT sometimes entering a harbor at night is the best option, or lesser of two evil's. When you need to choose entering at night our latest navigational technology (plus a person at the bow with a spot light) comes into it's own, no ones run down stairs plotting on a chart.

I clearly remember the first time I entered San Francisco Bay from offshore. Arrived at 3am and could clearly see all the city lights. Having never been in I decided to hang offshore for a few hours waiting on the sunrise. Just before sunrise the soup fog showed up. Ended up having a heavily anxiety promoting run in the channel with the morning outbound fleet jumping out of the fog at us. We hear the bridge traffic as we went under the Golden Gate but could not see the bridge deck through the fog.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Generally the best way BUT sometimes entering a harbor at night is the best option, or lesser of two evil's. When you need to choose entering at night our latest navigational technology (plus a person at the bow with a spot light) comes into it's own, no ones run down stairs plotting on a chart.

To add an example to the above, heaving to outside a harbour off the coast of South Africa when a SW gale is on the way, just isn't an option,you are going in. You've been at sea for 3-7 days, your tired and you don't have the luxury of waiting until morning, the electronic charts are awesome . Sometimes you can see a ship going in and can record his track ,once again adding clarity and confidence to your picture.

You run down that coast in between the those Sw fronts

[transmitterdan]

All of us need to acknowledge the fact that the world is moving away from paper (water proof or not) at nearly the speed of light. Just as we learned how to use a set of dividers, parallel rule and the like we now have to learn electronic charts and their systems.

We have to set up electronic systems that are reliable enough just like we had to have water proof storage for our paper charts. Multiple GPS units are necessary. And one or two must use batteries which we must keep a few days fresh supply on board. There are other best practices surrounding electronic systems too.

I strongly feel it would be better to discuss and learn the best ways to run a paper chart free boat than clinging to the quaint notion that paper and a sextant will save us when all else fails. It simply won’t and in the not distant future paper charts will not be available. They won’t keep printing them just for cruisers because cruisers won’t pay the true cost (thousands of $/€/£ per year) of maintaining the paper production process. Heck 90% of cruisers refuse to pay today’s very low cost for up to date paper if we are honest about it.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

All of us need to acknowledge the fact that the world is moving away from paper (water proof or not) at nearly the speed of light. Just as we learned how to use a set of dividers, parallel rule and the like we now have to learn electronic charts and their systems.

We have to set up electronic systems that are reliable enough just like we had to have water proof storage for our paper charts. Multiple GPS units are necessary. And one or two must use batteries which we must keep a few days fresh supply on board. There are other best practices surrounding electronic systems too.

I strongly feel it would be better to discuss and learn the best ways to run a paper chart free boat than clinging to the quaint notion that paper and a sextant will save us when all else fails. It simply won’t and in the not distant future paper charts will not be available. They won’t keep printing them just for cruisers because cruisers won’t pay the true cost (thousands of $/€/£ per year) of maintaining the paper production process. Heck 90% of cruisers refuse to pay today’s very low cost for up to date paper if we are honest about it.

100%......regardless of whether it's right or wrong we are moving rapidly away from paper to all electronics.....adapt we must and I'm all for it, bring it on!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

. . . My own person view is that the question of this thread kind of misses the point. A better question might be what are the best practices for using paper and/or electronic charts to keep one's boat and crew safe? Either one can be seriously misused without the proper training and periodic skills practice. I think it likely that paper and electronic charts are pretty equally misused by the majority of cruisers. If you are using and maintaining skills in best practices for paper or electronic charts either version will keep you out of trouble. If you don't use best practices then they will both equally get you into trouble.

Like.


And like even more on reading the second time.


The medium is not indeed the main thing at all. You cannot magically become a good navigator or pilot just because you chose the "right" form to have your charts in.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

. . . They won’t keep printing them just for cruisers because cruisers won’t pay the true cost (thousands of $/€/£ per year) of maintaining the paper production process. Heck 90% of cruisers refuse to pay today’s very low cost for up to date paper if we are honest about it.

100% in my experience, or maybe 99.9%, the remaining 0.1% who are former commercial navigators who sail in very small cruising areas.



I love paper charts, but what killed them for me was the impossibility of keeping paper for my whole cruising area (which is a big chunk of the world including all of Northern Europe and all of the old Viking seaways), which became physically impossible even without considering the impossible job of keeping it all updated.


Electronic charts can be updated with a keystroke, and occupy no space.

[JimJohnston]

During a tour of the bridge this past April on Royal Carribean's ship "Ovation", the officer in charge of the tour advised that the ship carries no paper charts; that they are a thing of the past. Obviously, there is a lot of redundancy and protection built in to their electronic systems.

We were sailing from Sydney to Honolulu.

[barnakiel]

In many situations, close to rocks, a 'plotter' option may be best.


This is because it is real time and detracts least fro steering and keeping eye on the water / piloting aids (when available).


This will also depend on whether you are a local or a visitor. A local may just as well switch of the plotter and go by the eye.


When going by the plotter it is an essential HABIT to check and make 3x sure (bloody sure) the device is updating. They do have their pitfalls and one is that the device may be showing your position say 30 seconds ago. Which in case of tight quarters navigation can mean you are already sitting on top of that reef!


Too bad water is not universally clear where coral and reefs are aplenty. Too bad at times we navigate at night or under tropical rain.


Cheers,
b.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

... in the not distant future paper charts will not be available. They won’t keep printing them just for cruisers because cruisers won’t pay the true cost (thousands of $/€/£ per year) of maintaining the paper production process. Heck 90% of cruisers refuse to pay today’s very low cost for up to date paper if we are honest about it.

Once a chart has been digitized (all have been), it will be forever available for printing (probably on demand). The cost (of non-copyright) charts should be similar to any large format copy. It's only the copyright royalty that makes electronic/paper charts "expensive", to purchase.

Creating charts will remain an expensive process, which is why so many current charts are based upon (nearly) "ancient" surveys.

[daletournier]

I was in Captown recently and had access to a large printer and a friends charts , therefore I took the opportunity to copy a few, why wouldn't I ,it didn't cost much and the worst that can happen is they stay rolled up with the others and never get looked at

There was a number of boats I knew that were also heading across the south Atlantic so I did the rounds and asked several if they'd like me to make a few copies for them if they didn't already have them......no one took me up on the offer.

Another example of how fast they are becoming a thing of the past.

[lamadriver]

Pilotage does seem to be a dying art with electronic charts. After spending significant time in chart poor areas I've really been diligent about collective pilotage from other people.

That said I think it depends on what your AO is.
I have another southern ocean season ahead of me with 6k miles of sailing in the '50s. I've just dropped 1500 dollars in paper. The chance of a knockdown is real and with a 30 dollar GPS, paper and my sextant I have no problems to keep going if I lose electrical power.

LD

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

. Heck 90% of cruisers refuse to pay today’s very low cost for up to date paper if we are honest about it.

Very low cost?
You've obviously never been to Australia.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Very low cost?
You've obviously never been to Australia.

Or New Zealand

[lordgeoff]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I wouldn't bet on either... my money would be on the person who had mastered the art of pilotage and who - having studied the chart and inwardly absorbed all salient information - was capable of keeping a good lookout while watching the leads, keeping an eye on small .. and large... traffic , and keeping his commgand in safe water..... without constant recourse to either paper or electronic.

From what I have read in this thread pilotage would appear to be a largely forgotten art.

Agree. If I was at the helm and on my Left was the worlds best celestial navigator with the best sextant and charts and on my right is the most incompetent newbie with a good chart plotter and I was navigating a difficult passage who would I consult? Neither.
I would be watching my most reliable piece of equipment the depth sounder. I would cast my eye regularly to the chart plotter to confirm what I was seeing agrees with why I am expecting from my planning. Most of my time would be eyeballing lights vessels speed. PPPPPP. Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. The excellent Celestial Navigators position plotting would be too inaccurate and too slow compared to the plotter. The depth sounder would tell confirm the expected depths. The rest is the Eyeball Mk1.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by lordgeoff

Agree. If I was at the helm and on my Left was the worlds best celestial navigator with the best sextant and charts and on my right is the most incompetent newbie with a good chart plotter and I was navigating a difficult passage who would I consult? Neither.
I would be watching my most reliable piece of equipment the depth sounder. I would cast my eye regularly to the chart plotter to confirm what I was seeing agrees with why I am expecting from my planning. Most of my time would be eyeballing lights vessels speed. PPPPPP. Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. The excellent Celestial Navigators position plotting would be too inaccurate and too slow compared to the plotter. The depth sounder would tell confirm the expected depths. The rest is the Eyeball Mk1.

Good luck navigating in coral lagoons, where the depth can go from 60 feet to 2 feet between the depthfinder location and the bow.