Paper Charts or Just Electronic

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

. . . .

If you do not like this argument, consider commercial shipping. They have switched to all electronic. If it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me. But some people may feel differently.

So you ponied up the $27k for a dual ECDIS system, $1,500 for training, $3k installation plus annual maintenance plus the weekly 50MB of updates and did this all on you Hunter 31? Is there room to sleep anymore?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Adelie

So you ponied up the $27k for a dual ECDIS system, $1,500 for training, $3k installation plus annual maintenance plus the weekly 50MB of updates and did this all on you Hunter 31? Is there room to sleep anymore?

Tee hee.

[Adelie]

Just occurred to to work der how often he has to run the engine to keep the batteries up. 4-8 times a day?

http://www.thedigitalship.com/confer..._is_orange.pdf

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You really don’t need a large screen, or aircraft couldn’t be flown as they are usually restricted screen size to at least as small as many plotters.

Now back in the day to plan flights we would spread out sectional charts on the floor, tape them together, draw the course line and make lines 5 km to either side and note highest obstacles, highlight power lines, radio towers etc.

Then about 1990 or so we started “flying” the mission on a computer using I believe it was called Falcon View?

Anyway the laying out the charts exercise has good training value, but really isn’t necessary today.

We will continue to disagree of course, but it is the 21st Century now and had been for quite sometime, there are better ways.

Yep, it was Flacon View, never knew it was Ga. Tech though
https://youtu.be/dIZDR8h1fmA

Well, I don't think air navigation is quite the same -- you fly mostly straight lines, but we might have complicated paths to follow through different obstacles.


It is possible to do it on a small screen and it's safe so long as you have "flown" the entire route zoomed in, and provided you do it over again every time you get off course and reset your course line. This can be hella tedious, which is why many skip it, and why we have accidents like Team Vestas and even U.S.S. Guardian. And in complicated water where you are trying to find the optimal path through a bunch of obstacles it becomes really difficult without the wide scale view containing full detail, which you get from a paper or raster chart.



I'm certainly not saying you can't navigate properly without paper. With raster charts and a decent screen it's fine, and actually better than paper in that it is feasible to keep it updated (never known a yachtsman using paper to have fully updated charts all the time), and you always have all the charts at your fingertips, and you get foolproof automatic plotting. With a vector chart and a program like OpenCPN, you can regulate the level of detail per zoom level and crank it up to take advantage of a larger screen. That can work ok too.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Adelie

So you ponied up the $27k for a dual ECDIS system, $1,500 for training, $3k installation plus annual maintenance plus the weekly 50MB of updates and did this all on you Hunter 31? Is there room to sleep anymore?

5 days and just under $3,500 for mine.....

https://www.southmetrotafe.wa.edu.au...avigate-safely

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Electronic only. Many benefits over paper charts. If you need a bigger size for passage planning, connect your favorite device (Android phone) to a large screen TV showing all the detail. If you are worried about losing power, carry a couple spare phones with electronic charts and fully charged batteries. The test, as with everything on the boat, is if you have not used them last six months, and they do not have dual purpose, get rid of them.

If you do not like this argument, consider commercial shipping. They have switched to all electronic. If it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me. But some people may feel differently.

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. At least not on U.S. flag ships. Paper charts are always carried and used. Redundant ECDIS now universal, but paper charts are ALWAYS out on the chart table.



That doesn't mean you HAVE to carry paper charts on your recreational vessel. But if you have room, it is a great tool. The ultimate failsafe. It is fine to not carry paper charts if you don't have room to lay one out, or can't afford them, but not because you are too lazy or electronic charts are "good enough".

[Training Wheels]

Electronic only for me. Paper way too heavy! [emoji2]

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. At least not on U.S. flag ships. Paper charts are always carried and used. Redundant ECDIS now universal, but paper charts are ALWAYS out on the chart table.

We have a mixture, some of our vessels are fully ECDIS compliant and don't carry, and are not required to, any paper charts....and some do, both meet requirements when all are up to date. We also have a small number of older builds that have no ECDIS at all and these all carry full folios of updated charts.....

[Simi 60]

My understanding of electronic charting is its only as good as the paper it came from.
If electronic charts are out then so are the paper charts.

One of the big advantages of an enclosed wheelhouse is being dry and having redundancy of gear.

We run Seiwa C-map based charting on a 23 inch pc monitor and opencpn on a second 23 inch pc monitor set up side by side.
Both stand alone systems, one running zoomed out and one zoomed in .

I believe the latest version of opencpn also allows split screen, one side zoomed in and the other out so that takes care of the missing out on details issue that many seemed concerned about.
Google earth satellite overlays on opencpn also often show discrepancies in chart data and lumps and bumps that may not be shown.

If we lose 240v power we have navionics on a 10 inch and an 8 inch android tablet.

If they somehow die we have 2 android phones which have GPS, so using them we can then revert back to large scale paper if needs be.

For passage planning, when we have a data connection, we use this
https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by lordgeoff

I zoom in to the max of the electronic chart along my route and insert a red alert on anything that is going to hole my hull or take out the keel or rudder Regardless of the zoom these markers remain visible so it makes it idiot proof to remember the points along my route that can cause me grief.

As do I and also have keel offset set to make 7ft of water and less show up as a very obvious difference
Opencpn has a great selection of danger icons.

[roverhi]

I have had GPS screw up big time. On delivery from SF to Oceanside the GPS plotter had me 50 miles off actual location. Got out the back up trusty ancient handheld, stuck AA batteries in it and got a lat/long position that I plotted on a small scale California Pacific Coast chart to find actual position. Used the trusty old aviation plotter to figure out a course to Monterey Harbor and headed in. The GPS plotter continued to give bad position information eventually locking onto onto a fix a mile or so off the harbor when we were still more than a dozen miles away. Shut the damn plotter off, demounted it, chucked it in a locker and bought a new 5" screen plotter to finish the trip south. That one gave me good position but had other issues.

The problem with the new plotter was that if you zoomed out to have a decent distant ahead field of view to where we were going it lost all the detail. Had to zoom into very small scale coverage chart to see some little things like all the oil platforms off Santa Barbara. Had to scale down and then scroll the screen to see from platform to platform to set a course to avoid them. Then had to scroll out to get a view that wasn't just a few miles ahead.

The most interesting thing was that the plotter that was giving me bad information has worked fine since. Once I got to Oceanside pulled it out of the locker and it's given me good position ever since. Would sell it but hesitate to pass on a plotter that may screw up again.

The orientation of the plotters is an issue for me. They are set up with a wide screen format. Probably because of the fisherman wanting a split screen image of the bottom for fishing and a GPS position. Unfortunately the wide screen sucks big time for navigating anything much over a few miles ahead. Have gone to a 9" plotter and it still gives little distance on screen AND any detail. Haven't found a way to switch the plot to long view on the screen which might cure the issues with the view.

Any how, keep those chart books handy to see where I'm really at. Just don't seem to get that view off a GPS plotter. Probably because of familiarity and long standing navigation with charts, plotting sheets, sextant and DR navigation. So always have a paper chart handy even when sailing in familiar waters.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

We have a mixture, some of our vessels are fully ECDIS compliant and don't carry, and are not required to, any paper charts....and some do, both meet requirements when all are up to date. We also have a small number of older builds that have no ECDIS at all and these all carry full folios of updated charts.....

Basically all U.S. ships are ECDIS compliant. And I have never in my life been on a ship with no paper charts in use. Ever. On smaller vessels like tugs, ferries, oilfield vessels, fishing boats, all bets are off. And I have no idea what the Navy does. But on regular ships, believe me, a professional, when I say that all ships carry and use charts. All U.S. ships, anyway. Now when I say ships, I am not talking about small vessels like the above mentioned, but actual ships in regular ocean commerce. It would be unthinkable to not have a position put down on a paper chart every hour, and much more often in pilotage waters.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Basically all U.S. ships are ECDIS compliant. And I have never in my life been on a ship with no paper charts in use. Ever. On smaller vessels like tugs, ferries, oilfield vessels, fishing boats, all bets are off. And I have no idea what the Navy does. But on regular ships, believe me, a professional, when I say that all ships carry and use charts. All U.S. ships, anyway. Now when I say ships, I am not talking about small vessels like the above mentioned, but actual ships in regular ocean commerce. It would be unthinkable to not have a position put down on a paper chart every hour, and much more often in pilotage waters.

And i'm a Master Mariner (Unlimited) and i can tell you emphatically that plenty of vessels worldwide that are fully ECDIS compliant do not carry paper charts and do not have to, and i'm not talking about small vessels either, i'm talking Tankers, Gas Buggies, Bulkies, Container, General Cargo, Cruise Ships and Oil Field Support Vessels....and if you had done the IMO approved ECDIS course you would know the legal carriage requirements, it's a huge component of the course...

I'm a Master for Swire Pacific Offshore Swire Pacific Offshore - Fleet
and have done stints in the past with sister companies Swire Shipping/China Nav https://www.swireshipping.com/ https://www.swirecnco.com/our-divisions also BHP and TK Shipping, all have vessels that are fitted with complaint ECDIS systems and all have vessels that don't carry or need to carry paper charts....

There is nothing new in what i wrote above in the shipping industry world wide, it's well know and accepted.....

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

And i'm a Master Mariner (Unlimited) and i can tell you emphatically that plenty of vessels worldwide that are fully ECDIS compliant do not carry paper charts and do not have to, and i'm not talking about small vessels either, i'm talking Tankers, Gas Buggies, Bulkies, Container, General Cargo, Cruise Ships and Oil Field Support Vessels....and if you had done the IMO approved ECDIS course you would know the legal carriage requirements, it's a huge component of the course...

I'm a Master for Swire Pacific Offshore Swire Pacific Offshore - Fleet
and have done stints in the past with sister companies Swire Shipping/China Nav https://www.swireshipping.com/ https://www.swirecnco.com/our-divisions also BHP and TK Shipping, all have vessels that are fitted with complaint ECDIS systems and all have vessels that don't carry or need to carry paper charts....

There is nothing new in what i wrote above in the shipping industry world wide, it's well know and accepted.....

So, not U.S. flag, then. Okay since I have only sailed on two foreign flag ships and they were before ECDIS, before GPS, even, I will concede that maybe ships registered to other countries do not all carry paper charts. However I will stick to what I said in that I have never in my entire career sailed on a ship under U.S. flag that did not carry and use paper charts even though full ECDIS is running. It simply is not done. This is not just history. I am still actively sailing.

[Jim Cate]

It would be unthinkable to not have a position put down on a paper chart every hour, and much more often in pilotage waters.

Amusing anecdote!

Couple of years ago an Aussie navy destroyer came into Hobart and was giving tours, so we went aboard. When we got to the bridge the young officer who was guiding us waxed on about t heir fancy electronic nav systems, and how wonderful they were. But I was looking elsewhere and found a desk with a paper chart of the Derwent river, up which they had just come. And on it were penciled fixes from sightings of shore objects taken with a pelorus... every few hundred meters. I later asked him about this, and he admitted that despite the fancy modern stuff, their practice was to keep the plot by these old methods. Note that this is a wide and deep river, and the passage was in daylight. I was amused, he seemed kinda embarrassed!

Jim