Paper Charts or Just Electronic

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by daletournier

It started with your earlier sernon:

If people don't want or are incapable of safely using paper charts then don't, i don't care, but give the BS about the safety of using them a rest, your just convincing those that can, that you can't......

So essentially what you are saying is just accept what is posted and move on, no retort? the quote above was in reply to a poster stating that paper charts are "obsolete and dangerous", thats just a BS statement, no other name for it

Your a master mariner, so what? I have a RYA yachmaster certificate, and to be honest I don't think it's worth that much. That piece of paper you have dosent mean your the one and only authority regarding yacht navigation.

Never stated or alluded to that i was the only authority on the subject, but i will debate the issue until proved wrong..... sorry you have very little regard for your cert, my certs are my career and worth a great deal

Theres many people cruising all around this world very safely with different views than yours, they have the runs on the board and that's what counts.

No issue there so thats a pointless statement

And regarding the Kimberlies, if you used one of the satellite navigation programs to determine what's under the water in those areas then your a fool and you would most likely come unstuck regardless of what you used, any navigation program etc is only as good as the operator.

So why then when i asked a simple question, in a friendly manner, did you get all bent out of shape, when i again in a friendly manner, said wrong, try again

And yes I'm aware of the big tides, I've cruised across the top twice.

..........

[conachair]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

You got it

I lived and worked in the Kimberleys from 94' to 01', pearling, fishing and chartering and when the tide gets a giddy up you cannot see a thing, the amount of mud that gets moved around there is phenomenal, you can have a fish hooked and look over the side and not see a thing until a foot from the surface, on the pearl farms diving in zero visibility was the norm not the exception...

A satellite does not know when the tides are spring, neap, high or low when it records the image, and neither does the individual that downloads it, and it certainly can't record an clear image of the sea bed through 5m of chocolate colored water, let alone the 10m to 12m's that the tides get to...

This is why the 2 boats i mentioned hit bricks, the sat images did not show anything where they hit, this is why i picked the Kimberleys....

No one actually said get some satilitte images and nothing else though, probably as it's really stupid and no one thought it needed saying. Cm93 might be old but generally pretty accurate and not exactly rocket science to find online.
Sat images can be extremely useful though, not using such a handy free resource just because a couple of idiots ran aground isn't very clever either. BTW, around europe they seem to be all taken around low water which can be really handy to find the channel in hectares of water all looking the same at HWS.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by conachair

No one actually said get some satilitte images and nothing else though, probably as it's really stupid and no one thought it needed saying. Cm93 might be old but generally pretty accurate and not exactly rocket science to find online.
Sat images can be extremely useful though, not using such a handy free resource just because a couple of idiots ran aground isn't very clever either. BTW, around europe they seem to be all taken around low water which can be really handy to find the channel in hectares of water all looking the same at HWS.

Whats your point? again i have never said anything about, for or against, sat imaging, not once! i asked one valid question (post 169) about where caution would be prudent when using them, whats hard to understand about that? or are you of the opinion that pointing out possible hazards to the unwary is stupid?

[conachair]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Whats your point? again i have never said anything about, for or against, sat imaging, not once! i asked one valid question (post 169) about where caution would be prudent when using them, whats hard to understand about that? or are you of the opinion that pointing out possible hazards to the unwary is stupid?

It was this comment - 'Just a quick question about this.....what would (is) the problem with this practice in somewhere like the Kimberleys for instance??'

That infers that sat images are being used as a sole source of nav info and subsequently boats ran aground because ofbthis. No only that but not very well hidden between the lines it comes across that all you are really interested in is points scoring.

Ooua here.

[David M]

I used to keep both. I was brought up on paper. But if you have true redundancy with electronic charts then you should be good to go.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by conachair

It was this comment - 'Just a quick question about this.....what would (is) the problem with this practice in somewhere like the Kimberleys for instance??'

That infers that sat images are being used as a sole source of nav info and subsequently boats ran aground because ofbthis. No only that but not very well hidden between the lines it comes across that all you are really interested in is points scoring.

Ooua here.

Lol..................me to

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

It's neither obsolete or dangerous, anyone that believes so lives with there head in the sand and is incapable of basic chart work and navigation and should stay as far away from water as possible.....

Seriously some of you guys should be consultants for the IMO/IHO and the rest of the world's Hydrographic offices cause they have obviously had it wrong all these years.....and while your at it nip into all the reputable Maritime Collages around the planet and put them straight, obviously they have it all wrong to...

Some of you need to get it through your heads that the main target for paper charts is not the grotty yottie/recreational boatie but comercial shipping, you have a choice whether you want to use them or not, if you don't want to then don't, nobody cares! but quit the BS about how relevant they are....

Let me give you a little challenge. Its 0330 and we have had less than 4 hours rest in the last 24. We are are working our way up a narrow and winding channel with a variable cross current and gusty winds.

I'll let you plot on your paper charts, when you have the time between adjusting sails, looking for navigation lights, and monitoring the radar, depth sounder, and watching traffic.

Me, I'll be watching the chartplotter, which gives me a track and a projected COG which takes the current into account and updates every second. It also gives me CPA and TCPA for the traffic, and let me know when they are likely to turn. It also doesn't suffer from fatigue.

Who will bet on Island Hopper to stay out of trouble, and who will bet on me.

I've done it both ways, and I KNOW I am safer with the chartplotter. It does give me much more time to verify my navigation with other inputs.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Let me give you a little challenge. Its 0330 and we have had less than 4 hours rest in the last 24. We are are working our way up a narrow and winding channel with a variable cross current and gusty winds.

I'll let you plot on your paper charts, when you have the time between adjusting sails, looking for navigation lights, and monitoring the radar, depth sounder, and watching traffic.

Me, I'll be watching the chartplotter, which gives me a track and a projected COG which takes the current into account and updates every second. It also gives me CPA and TCPA for the traffic, and let me know when they are likely to turn. It also doesn't suffer from fatigue.

Who will bet on Island Hopper to stay out of trouble, and who will bet on me.

I wouldn't bet on either... my money would be on the person who had mastered the art of pilotage and who - having studied the chart and inwardly absorbed all salient information - was capable of keeping a good lookout while watching the leads, keeping an eye on small .. and large... traffic , and keeping his command in safe water..... without constant recourse to either paper or electronic.

From what I have read in this thread pilotage would appear to be a largely forgotten art.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

I guess depending on charts, paper or electronic, while sailing near hard stuff in the water is probably not wise. Visual confirmation is important as is depth readings from a sounder.

I have a friend (experienced voyager) who has no problem entering strange harbours at night depending entirely on electronics (GPS, radar, depth sounder) to get him safely to an anchorage. One of his forays includes entering Penryhn in the Cook Islands at night to anchor off Omoko Village. The image attached makes the hair stand on my neck!

As much as I support the use of electronics for pilotage, my faith doesn’t stretch that far. I do what it needs to arrive at unfamiliar entrances in daylight (shorten sail, slow the boat). If not possible, I stand off until visual confirmation supports electronics.

I've been into Omoko twice, both with paper charts, and there is NO WAY I would go in at night, paper or electronic. There were stakes marking uncharted bommies that you just couldn't see without good light. I remember going to Te Tautua on the windward side of the lagoon, it required good light and someone in the rigging. There was a single-handed catamaran over there with the bottom ripped out. I offered to help him fix the boat, but he got evasive. Turns out his crew had quit and he tried to cross the lagoon in the evening for an insurance job rather than take the boat home. To their credit, his insurance company paid to ship the boat to NZ rather than pay it off.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I wouldn't bet on either... my money would be on the person who had mastered the art of pilotage and who - having studied the chart and inwardly absorbed all salient information - was capable of keeping a good lookout while watching the leads, keeping an eye on small .. and large... traffic , and keeping his command in safe water..... without constant recourse to either paper or electronic.

From what I have read in this thread pilotage would appear to be a largely forgotten art.

While I applaud the sentiment regarding pilotage, my money wouldn’t be on either of you, sorry, it would be on the guy anchored or hove to outside the narrow winding channel getting some necessary rest before a safe entry once the dawn arrives.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

While I applaud the sentiment regarding pilotage, my money wouldn’t be on either of you, sorry, it would be on the guy anchored or hove to outside the narrow winding channel getting some necessary rest before a safe entry once the dawn arrives.

You just described me.
Safety first.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I wouldn't bet on either... my money would be on the person who had mastered the art of pilotage and who - having studied the chart and inwardly absorbed all salient information - was capable of keeping a good lookout while watching the leads, keeping an eye on small .. and large... traffic , and keeping his command in safe water..... without constant recourse to either paper or electronic.

From what I have read in this thread pilotage would appear to be a largely forgotten art.

Pilotage has changed due to one having more tools at his/her disposal thus more accuracy than ever before. This does not mean one should not prepare in advance and use old skills as well. Having easy accurate multiple sources of information exactly where you need it, at the helm , increases safety onboard.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

While I applaud the sentiment regarding pilotage, my money wouldn’t be on either of you, sorry, it would be on the guy anchored or hove to outside the narrow winding channel getting some necessary rest before a safe entry once the dawn arrives.

Generally the best way BUT sometimes entering a harbor at night is the best option, or lesser of two evil's. When you need to choose entering at night our latest navigational technology (plus a person at the bow with a spot light) comes into it's own, no ones run down stairs plotting on a chart.

[daletournier]

One other great feature of programs such as open cpn is the use of other cruisers previous tracks. I literally have 100's and 100's of tracks from friends for 100's of places around the world.

Part of my passage planning is understanding the anchorage(s) I'll be heading into in advance. I often find a friends previous track and overlay it onto the chart, it is another tool that adds clarity. This is extremely useful in places like west Papua where often the charts are incredibly inaccurate or like the river I went up in French Guyana recently where I literally could see where my friends the previous year touched bottom allowing me to safely navigate around the shallow area.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

I would have called that misuse of dividers or parallel rules.

Call it what you want, it happened many times in the pre GPS and paper chart only times on small boats. The position of navigator actually existed on small cruising boats dling passages because it required so much time and effort.