FURUNO or B&G

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

No, they are real but they are not all boats.
Look at the pic included, like I said,over here there are thousands of boats and a handful of targets.
Look at any marina and popular anchorage in the land and only a small % have ais.

How do you know if they have AIS? I think most boats in marinas turn off their instruments (I do) and therefore don't display as an AIS target.

We installed AIS transponder in 2009 in Asia and completed our circumnavigation with it. We found it invaluable for becoming aware of and avoiding ships.

We never encountered a vessel of significant size which was not transmitting AIS but many smaller fishing vessels don't use it, and unfortunately many of them don't show up on radar either.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We are running and using every day a B&G Hercules system which was installed on this vessel in 1979 and upgraded in 1986 and 1995.

We've had some failures at times but for the last 10 years it has been flawless, so reliability does not seem to be a problem with B&G.

Not all people who make their living on the water choose Furuno. For reasons of functionality for sailing, B&G is the choice of the vast majority of high end racing sailboats.

Regarding radar, it is my feeling that on a shorthanded cruising sailing yacht it is difficult to maintain a radar watch for reasons of power and crew attention, We often need to be doing other things than sitting or standing and looking at a radar display.

Note that today's B&G has almost nothing to do with the Brooks & Gatehouse company of 1979. The name was bought quite a few years ago by Navico, the Norwegian company which owns Simrad. So today B&G is just a name pasted on sailing-oriented Simrad equipment.



Concerning radar watch -- nobody maintains a constant radar watch on recreational yachts. That's not the use case. We maintain a radar watch in bad visibility, when it's the only way to "see", and we may keep a radar screen on the helm MFD at night, with regular timed glances (saved my bacon more than a couple of times). We use radar guard zones (incredibly valuable enhancement to watchkeeping offshore, even in good viz), and we use radar for navigation (only technique I had in Greenland with no remotely accurate charts). If we had MARPA which worked, we would use that dealing with non-AIS transmitting collision hazards. But even without MARPA and EBL on the target is extremely useful. Lastly we use radar for setting parallel incidices to pass safely through areas with a lot of hazards. Radar is incredibly useful on a yacht; I would rank it above the chart plotter in fact.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Note that today's B&G has almost nothing to do with the Brooks & Gatehouse company of 1979. The name was bought quite a few years ago by Navico, the Norwegian company which owns Simrad. So today B&G is just a name pasted on sailing-oriented Simrad equipment.

If we are talking about chart plotters I'd have to agree but for much of the rest of the B&G line I see a clear linage from model to model since the early 70's.

It's clear that the current devices and software are direct descendants of each of the earlier iterations. So, no, Simrad is not just pasting B&G stickers on Simrad equipment. If Simrad is manufacturing them then they have picked up the original design and manufacturing processes and are carrying that forward.

I am still loyal to B&G, as are most owners of racing sailboats.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by wingssail

If we are talking about chart plotters I'd have to agree but for much of the rest of the B&G line I see a clear linage from model to model since the early 70's.

It's clear that the current devices and software are direct descendants of each of the earlier iterations. So, no, Simrad is not just pasting B&G stickers on Simrad equipment. If Simrad is manufacturing them then they have picked up the original design and manufacturing processes and are carrying that forward.

I am still loyal to B&G, as are most owners of racing sailboats.

Besides racing instruments, B&G hardware is the same as Simrad, but the software sure isn’t. The Simrad software is for motorboats and the B&G software is for sailboats. Sometimes big differences exist.
Also when you order a 4G Radar from Simrad, it comes with a much shorter cable than the same unit from B&G.
Then there’s the autopilot. It is still manufactured in the Robertson facility

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

. . . We never encountered a vessel of significant size which was not transmitting AIS but many smaller fishing vessels don't use it, and unfortunately many of them don't show up on radar either.

I have criticised the Navico CW radars, but in this they are flawless. Not even a kayak will not show up, on one of these, much less any kind of fishing boat.

[Moo]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We never encountered a vessel of significant size which was not transmitting AIS but many smaller fishing vessels don't use it, and unfortunately many of them don't show up on radar either.

Plenty don't have it you just didn't see them

Anything will show up on RADAR if you know how to use it. Anything that can be used as a fishing platform will show up. Most radars come out of the box with quite useless settings. Settings that give pretty picture but to get the clear picture the unit is so de-tuned that it won't see targets!

[sailjumanji]

Id be shocked if a fishing vessel didnt show up on Navico 4G radar, in my experience. We routinely pick up the tops of 9 inch diameter pilings on radar, the channel markers.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Moo

Plenty don't have it you just didn't see them

Anything will show up on RADAR if you know how to use it. Anything that can be used as a fishing platform will show up. Most radars come out of the box with quite useless settings. Settings that give pretty picture but to get the clear picture the unit is so de-tuned that it won't see targets!

There are many small, poor targets that are very difficult to see on Radar when in significant seas on typical sized cruising boat using a typical sized radar.

[Moo]

Originally Posted by Paul L

There are many small, poor targets that are very difficult to see on Radar when in significant seas on typical sized cruising boat using a typical sized radar.

Yes I didn't say it was easy. There is a learning curve and a certain amount of skill required for good radar operation. Many don't want to invest energy in learning so just put radar in the too difficult bin and then slag it off as a useless tool...

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Moo

Yes I didn't say it was easy. There is a learning curve and a certain amount of skill required for good radar operation. Many don't want to invest energy in learning so just put radar in the too difficult bin and then slag it off as a useless tool...

I agree that it takes significant practice to diak in a radar in tougher conditions.
Let me make my point more directly. There are small targets that will be missed in rough conditions on a typical cruising boat with typical Radar. Good watchkeeper or not.

[Randy]

Under 300 ton is a boat not a ship. I've sailed ships to 90,000 ton all over the world and in many areas where traffic is heavy even boats and their nets carry ais, yes even their net markers

Originally Posted by Moo

Not all ships are required to have AIS. Under 300 T it is not required. Some flags require it for all commercial vessels, whatever the tonnage, some don't. In many parts of the world it is unusual to see AIS on anything. RADAR is real :;

[Moo]

Originally Posted by Randy

Under 300 ton is a boat not a ship. I've sailed ships to 90,000 ton all over the world and in many areas where traffic is heavy even boats and their nets carry ais, yes even their net markers

Lol... You and your 90,000 tonnes will never be off the beaten track. Sure in some parts of the world there is a high uptake of AIS... In others close to zero... Anybody who relies on AIS is a fool.... Anybody who relies on internet AIS a double fool.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by wingssail

How do you know if they have AIS? I think most boats in marinas turn off their instruments (I do) and therefore don't display as an AIS target.

.

Stands in wheelhouse looks out window at the approx 100 boats that arrived today at a nearby anchorage and the constant stream of boats heading towards it still
Looks at AIS and sees a dozen boats.

Also you can usually see boats for several hours or more after AIS has been turned off as a darker dot on marine traffic and on a Sunday night or Monday morning the nearby marina which has hundreds of boats still only shows a handful of signals.

Reality is that only a small % of boats here have it.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I agree that it takes significant practice to diak in a radar in tougher conditions.
Let me make my point more directly. There are small targets that will be missed in rough conditions on a typical cruising boat with typical Radar. Good watchkeeper or not.

True and for that reason I rarely use it.
Trying to pick a dot out on a small screen set at 1nm range is near on useless.

I would love to upgrade to 4G before heading off on the big trip at years end but given the lackluster performance of the JMC radar I currently have I wonder if 4G will be sooooo much better?
Sure, it'll be overplayed on a 23 inch monitor but still, is it that much of an advantage?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

True and for that reason I rarely use it.
Trying to pick a dot out on a small screen set at 1nm range is near on useless.

I would love to upgrade to 4G before heading off on the big trip at years end but given the lackluster performance of the JMC radar I currently have I wonder if 4G will be sooooo much better?
Sure, it'll be overplayed on a 23 inch monitor but still, is it that much of an advantage?

What size is the JMC antenna?
In recreational radar they are typically 18in or 24in antennas. The 24in is far better at small target discrimination. The number to look at in the specs is the horizontal beam width in degrees. The smaller the number the better in practice. A Furuno 19in antenna is 5.2*, a 24in (which costs very little more) is 4.0* and far better. An open array 3.5ft antenna is 2.3* and a 6 ft is 1.4*.