When neighboring boat disagrees

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

I agree that it is never cut and dry. I also believe that using an anchor marker/buoy has more to do with our safety than the liability of using one. Where we boat, using an anchor buoy/marker is never about entitlement. It actually helps other boaters.

When we pull into a rocky bottom area, not only will an anchor buoy keep us from losing our anchor, but more importantly, it shows other boats exactly where our rode/chain is so they won't drag over it. It also shows our maximum turning radius, and we can put a waypoint on its exact location, as well as our neighbors. If there is an anchor drag, we will all know and respond accordingly.

I would be hard pressed to tell anyone around here that their anchor buoy is a hazard and needs to go.



Again, if it was about clearing your anchor, I agree. But a trip line is no better than just the rode/chain if people don't know where your anchor and rode are when they are about to anchor.

The reason I went with 2 anchors is because my boat sits in the middle of 2 - 5:1 all chain scopes. So, my boat swings to a tight circle in the center of both, which is more like I was on a mooring buoy, and a fraction of the circle of a boat on one anchor. It also won't pull and need to reset when the tide and current shifts.

I would also be happy to mark both of my anchors so people could set parallel to mine.

I wish everyone would do this and we would have 4 times the occupancy in our busier anchorages.

In your thought process do you believe that the area from your stern to your anchor buoy is off limits to other boaters coming in to anchor? I don't see that as practical in crowded anchorages.

There's a number of ways of laying multiple anchors. Most them end up lots of opportunity for cluster f situation among boats. In your example aren't you just anchoring with short scope twice, making you susceptible wind gusts, etc?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

snip... I tell them I am well insured, and ask them if they are as well. Usually, they don't answer and go below. ... snip

I'm telling I'm not insured and broke, they usually lift their anchor and leave (just joking)

Teddy

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Any experienced sailor will have a plenty good idea from how your boat is lying, and anyway it's more or less irrelevant -- it's perfectly normal for boats to swing over each other's ground tackle.

There you have it, experienced. We have what we call Weekend Warriors here in the PNW of Washington State. They arrive late, they set over you, then bitch because you are too close, ...as you watch them peel out a 10:1 scope thinking it will create more distance between boats. Moreover, many use the wrong anchor - like a Danforth sand anchor - in rocks, and set it by backing down until the tines get stuck. Once the tide shifts - and we have 8-10' tides here - they think someone ran over their rode, and we all hear about it, long, hard, and loud.

I understand your argument - legally speaking - but a solid case can be made for using one.

We have the luxury of having very large anchoring areas all along our coastline. But even in the tighter areas, we protect ourselves from the Weekend Warriors any way we can. Just walk down any dock in boating season and you can pick out the sailors from the WW just by looking at their anchors.

Then there are the 'yachties' or YW's. They are much like the WW's, but they use ¼" chain or a ⅜" laid nylon line to hold a 40' or 50' boat. And of those who use the correct ground tackle and anchor style, many use an anchor much too small. Like the WWs, they drag, and then blame everyone but themselves, citing how we will be hearing from their lawyers. Sound familiar?

The time someone used my A2 as a mooring buoy? What experienced sailor would moor their boat overnight, with our tides, to a float held in place by a yellow ¼" polypro line? But he did.

Or someone comes through 50 crab pot buoys and runs over the biggest one? But think about this, ....they had a line cutter on their prop. So, this had to have happened before. Then, was this intentional, pure laziness, a lack of care and attention because they know they will be okay? ....The mind boggles.

Again, those were two of my 3 experiences using one, and to me, that's too big of a coincidence. However, as comedian Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid." We can only try to protect ourselves from it.

Again, I don't use one, but I certainly understand the reason people do. In fact, many of the inexperienced sailors use them too, ....and we experienced types are glad they do.

[rognvald]

"You would like the Northern Baltic -- I spent whole summers at anchor there without ever sharing an anchorage with even one other boat more than two or three times over the course of the whole summer. That's because it's so vast with so many places to anchor in the millions of islands. That + Allemansrecht = cruising paradise!" Dockhead

Sounds exceptional, D! We sailed this last Summer from Chicago through the Great Lakes/St. Lawrence River to the Canadian Maritimes--almost 2000 miles in less than 3 months. The St. Lawrence was an exceptional experience in traditional navigation with 18-foot tides, ten-knot currents, and boulder-strewn shallows. Once we left Quebec City, we never saw another boat for almost 300 miles. We sailed the old Sailboat Channel along the South shore of the St. Lawrence and it was exceptional. We never had any anchoring problems since we never saw another cruising sailboat heading East. Cruisers need to look for these places and they still exist. We are in South Florida now and contrary to what many assume, there are countless areas to sail/explore where you rarely, if ever, encounter other "boaters." Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald P.S. I love the concept of allemannsretten!

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

* Concerning technique -- I did stop using anchor buoys a few years ago when I figured out a better and safer way to rig a tripping line. What I do now is to rig a dyneema line which runs up the anchor chain, attached every 6 meters or so with a very light cable tie. In case of need, a sharp pull on the tripping line breaks the cable ties, and Bob's your uncle. This is a better way to do it because it eliminates the risk of your anchor getting tripped when you don't want it to, and doesn't endanger other vessels.

I guess not everybody dives, but wouldn't most people just dive the anchor and unfoul it, or dive it and attach some rope or chain to the trip point once the need becomes clear?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by rognvald

...Sounds exceptional, D! We sailed this last Summer from Chicago through the Great Lakes/St. Lawrence River to the Canadian Maritimes--almost 2000 miles in less than 3 months. The St. Lawrence was an exceptional experience in traditional navigation with 18-foot tides, ten-knot currents, and boulder-strewn shallows. Once we left Quebec City, we never saw another boat for almost 300 miles. We sailed the old Sailboat Channel along the South shore of the St. Lawrence and it was exceptional. We never had any anchoring problems since we never saw another cruising sailboat heading East. Cruisers need to look for these places and they still exist. We are in South Florida now and contrary to what many assume, there are countless areas to sail/explore where you rarely, if ever, encounter other "boaters." Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald P.S. I love the concept of allemannsretten!

+1 on that.

We sailed the St. Lawrence two seasons ago, going from Lake Ontario to Newfoundland. We anchored almost the entire time, stopping at marinas only twice. Once south of Montreal we rarely anchored with another boat. Past Quebec City we rarely saw another recreational boater.

We sailed the north shore past L'Isle-aux-Coudres, and as rognvald says, encountered 10+ knot currents and 25 foot tides (just south of QC). Anchoring was sometimes a challenge, but certainly not due to crowds .

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I guess not everybody dives, but wouldn't most people just dive the anchor and unfoul it, or dive it and attach some rope or chain to the trip point once the need becomes clear?

Not if you're anchored among icebergs!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I guess not everybody dives, but wouldn't most people just dive the anchor and unfoul it, or dive it and attach some rope or chain to the trip point once the need becomes clear?

Not if your a single hander..
The 10 metre sinking trip line zip tied onto the chain is the best bet when anchoring in rocky ground.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rognvald

". . . P.S. I love the concept of allemannsretten!

Thread drift, but once you've cruised a place where you can roam anywhere you want, it's hard to go back to "civilization" where all the land is enclosed and posted "no trespassing!" and you are limited to roads and public paths. All the Nordic countries have Allemansrecht. Scotland and Russia also have their own versions of it. I've never felt so free anywhere.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thread drift, but once you've cruised a place where you can roam anywhere you want, it's hard to go back to "civilization" where all the land is enclosed and posted "no trespassing!" and you are limited to roads and public paths. All the Nordic countries have Allemansrecht. Scotland and Russia also have their own versions of it. I've never felt so free anywhere.

Come to Newfoundland DH. You’d love it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

. . . We have what we call Weekend Warriors here in the PNW of Washington State. They arrive late, they set over you, then bitch because you are too close, ...as you watch them peel out a 10:1 scope thinking it will create more distance between boats. Moreover, many use the wrong anchor - like a Danforth sand anchor - in rocks, and set it by backing down until the tines get stuck. Once the tide shifts - and we have 8-10' tides here - they think someone ran over their rode, and we all hear about it, long, hard, and loud.

. . .

Then there are the 'yachties' or YW's. They are much like the WW's, but they use ¼" chain or a ⅜" laid nylon line to hold a 40' or 50' boat. And of those who use the correct ground tackle and anchor style, many use an anchor much too small. Like the WWs, they drag, and then blame everyone but themselves, citing how we will be hearing from their lawyers. Sound familiar?

. . .

Sounds dreadful!


The PNW is a pretty tough area -- tough weather, horrendous bars, lee shores -- I'm surprised such as you describe even survive.


I would avoid anchoring with the likes of that lot. I guess I would move on to B.C. or Alaska.




If you insist on using an anchor buoy, just remember:


1. You are exposing yourself to having your anchor tripped by someone drifting over it or running over it, possibly in the dark.


2. You are exposing yourself to possible liability.


3. You are taking up about 10 times as much room, because your buoy doesn't swing. That's a really jerk move if space is tight.


4. Experienced sailors will curse you.




If you're ok with all of that, then go for it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Come to Newfoundland DH. You’d love it.

It does sound delightful! I was in Greenland last summer and probably closer to Newfoundland, or anyway Labrador, than I was to my own home base. Maybe next time I will just keep going West.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

To use my own anecdote as an example, Mr. Grouchy-pants essentially tried to lay claim to the entire anchorage with his excessive scope. If we had gone bump in the night it would have been b/c of his 12:1 scope. So, who is the irresponsible one here? And who is legally liable for damages?

You. It is NOT because he laid 12:1. It is because he laid 12:1 and you decided it was safe to anchor within the swing radius. Think about how silly it would be for the court to try to decide for YOU how much scope is enough and how you should anchor? Impossible, just read any anchoring thread. So the first person may anchor as they see prudent. Perhaps he felt his anchor held poorly. Perhaps he has rope rode. Perhaps he felt differently about the weather forecast. Impossible to judge. He did what he felt was prudent and he did not drag.

This is like telling someone they don't know how to drive, because they drive differently from you, but when they have broken no law. All you can do is give them room.


I though that this, from Dockhead, was well put: "But it does NOT indeed mean that a person who anchored first "rules the roost", or owns the seabed according to his own opinion about how much room he needs. This is a common misconception. A person coming later has the right to anchor the way he pleases, subject only to his responsibility in case of an accident. The earlier vessel has no right to do anything but move, in case he disagrees."


In other words, you can anchor where you like... but you are responsible for what happens next.


But I don't get this statement (also Dockhead): "If someone's boat goes on the rocks because their prop got entangled [in your anchor float], it will be you paying, not them!"


In this case, they got tangled because they fouled gear that was already there. Following his prior logic, I'm pretty sure they are responsible. There have been court cases where boat A fouled boat B's rode and was held responsible. Same logic.


BTW, I hate anchor floats.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not if you're anchored among icebergs!


Attachment 187468

Interesting. I have friends who cut holes in the ice so they can dive. They say the visibility is best when there's no wave action because the surface is iced over.



I don't go that far but have been 60 feet below the surface of Lake Superior when it's 3 degrees C.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Not if your a single hander..
The 10 metre sinking trip line zip tied onto the chain is the best bet when anchoring in rocky ground.

..nod.. I see.