When neighboring boat disagrees

[senormechanico]

matjam,
Where is "here"?

[zboss]

Originally Posted by carlylelk

===============================================



First of all, I did not identify you other than the boat and color...no names.



Secondly, I believe you are incorrect in several of your memories above.



Third, the insurance company surveyor found cracking of the hull laminates that you and I did not see. It required significant fiberglass work and a great deal of time and effort. The insurance company surveyor inspected the hull after grinding off the gel coat and recommended the repairs. I'm pretty sure the insurance company is not in the habit of paying for needless repairs.



Fourth, I did ask you to move and you told me with your vast experience you were fine, and you would keep an eye on it, but when you hit us you were down below deck.



Last, attached is a photo of my chartplotter after the impact. I'm the red boat, you are the white boat. From the tracks I'd like to ask who was all over the place with too much rode out?

It doesn’t matter that you didn’t personally identify my boat but it does matter that you never bothered saying anything and I’ve heard from several other cruisers (and now on this forum) of you making biased personal and unflattering mention of us. I never once attacked you or said anything negative about you to anybody. I am very shocked to hear this here.

We were all sailing unusually hard that evening in an unfortunate confluence of a 2.75 knot outgoing current going exactly 180 degrees against a very fast moving storm with winds were clocked at almost 50 knot gusts. Our boat is a full keel boat compared to your Amel fin keel and in some situations it gets pushed around more by current. This is why my boat is seen moving more than yours. We never once got close to you over several days or we would have moved.

The storm was quick and furious and your contention that we were not keeping watch is false. We were most definitely awake and aware and the situation happened very suddenly with a gust from a different direction... 90 degrees from the previous gusts as the storm passed. We had reached the end of the storm and the boats took a swing at each other. This is not the first time boats have done this and it probably won’t be the last... it happens so often they have a name for it.

With that said, we just didn’t hit that hard AND it was a short side swipe. While I am not a marine surveyor or engineer I find it hard to believe that a boat that weighs half your weight and where we were both moving at perhaps only a knot and where we contacted side swipe motion with fenders In between would cause your boat to bend and crack. That just doesn’t sound like an Amel I am familiar with. I didn’t even have any paint on my chainplates or on my rubrail. I experienced zero damage from the incident.

I’m sorry you were unhappy with your settlement but we made an agreement to allow our insurance to handle the issue. I’ve accepted my part in the incident by contacting my insurance company and having them interact with your insurance company to do what they do.

I encourage you to stop your personal attacks in both public and private forums. I’m not even asking for an apology for your personal attacks. This is the last I will comment on this thread so if you want to be right, be right.

[mat jam]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

matjam,
Where is "here"?

Along the milk run Greece.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Some people just seem to want as much room as possible, regardless. I particularly love those individuals that use 10 to 1 or more scope in a sheltered anchorage to ensure they have all the room they want !!

And how do you know their scope? Did you ask them?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

First, every Admiralty ruling I have ever read says that the first person pretty much has the right to anchor anyway they want, using as much scope as they want, and two anchors, if they want. Until they drag, they have a right to the space and you need to keep clear. Not personal space, just enough so you do not strike. . .

That is correct. But note well! That this does not mean that the first person has any right to all the space he THINKS he needs, nor that the first person has the right to chase you off. It just means that the second vessel is responsible for anchoring safely, so that contact does not occur.


So if it comes down to arguing the law with another person, what you say, as the second vessel, is "It is my judgement that there is enough room, and I am responsible for the consequences."


Of course you never want to get to the point of arguing the law. As many others have said -- if someone else is unhappy, the best thing to do is just leave. If you are first and YOU are unhappy, the best thing to do also is -- just pull up the anchor and go somewhere else.



But as others have also said -- that's not always possible. Here's a story of what happened to me one time, in that situation:


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ain-86277.html


together with a creative solution.

[SaltyMetals]

Exactly, HZ. How do you know their scope? I have invested in an anchor buoy which has a line on a return spring (20m) which will mark my anchor. Not that i put out 10:1 but usually 4-5:1 unless it is a real blow in which case 7:1. At least i always know where my anchor is and at least any newcomers can see it instead of guessing.

When retrieving the anchor the line in the anchor buoy automatically rewinds so it is not much trouble. Just have to catch it with a boat hook and lift it on board.
Andrew
"Genial Bee"

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by SaltyMetals

? I have invested in an anchor buoy which has a line on a return spring (20m) which will mark my anchor.

In general other people anchoring hate those buoys! They are great I guess for the users, but are now just something else for other boats to worry about getting hung up on.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by SaltyMetals

I have invested in an anchor buoy which has a line on a return spring (20m) which will mark my anchor.

I briefly used an anchor buoy. I started with an A1, but some idiot ran over it. Thankfully, they had a line cutter, so I only lost the buoy, which they paid me for.

I moved up to an A2 buoy on my anchor, ....until one morning I woke up to see a smaller fishing boat using it as a mooring buoy.

I'm so glad these were calm nights, or we all would have been on the rocks.

That's when I started setting two anchors on all chain, with 5:1 scopes.

[gonesail]

it's human nature coming from living in close proximity. people get territorial on land and in the water. you hope you aren't close to one of them but invariably you will be. if they were there first then you are in their space.

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Personally, I’d seek out other anchorages to begin with. What you describe holds no appeal to me.

Yep 10-4

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

I briefly used an anchor buoy. I started with an A1, but some idiot ran over it. Thankfully, they had a line cutter, so I only lost the buoy, which they paid me for.

I moved up to an A2 buoy on my anchor, ....until one morning I woke up to see a smaller fishing boat using it as a mooring buoy.

I'm so glad these were calm nights, or we all would have been on the rocks.

That's when I started setting two anchors on all chain, with 5:1 scopes.

Please don't use anchor buoys in anchorages shared with other people! It's very bad etiquette and a very bad practice which endangers other boats, on a par with laying lobster pots in a navigation channel.


If someone's boat goes on the rocks because their prop got entangled, it will be you paying, not them!



These should only be used for rocky bottoms, and places where there aren't other boats.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

In general other people anchoring hate those buoys! They are great I guess for the users, but are now just something else for other boats to worry about getting hung up on.

Anchor buoys are a menace!


It is also a nasty, overreaching territorial grab, to use those things in a crowded anchorage, especially in one with changing tidal currents, where boats swing over each other's anchors when the tide changes.



I do have and use one -- lot of very rocky anchorages in the Northern Baltic -- but strictly for anchor retrieval in case of getting the anchor jammed under a rock, and never when other boats are around.





Other tips on anchoring etiquette for crowded anchorages:


* In a crowded anchorage, try to anchor with boats similar in size and type to yours so that you swing together better.


* Try to match the scope of other boats, so that you swing together better. Don't use excessive scope.


* If you are in a cat, anchor in shallower water where monos can't go.


* If you're in a big boat with a lot of chain, anchor in deeper water where smaller boats prefer not to be (that's my usual case).



* For God's sake, don't use a shore tie, stern anchor, or Bahamian moor, if others are not -- recipe for swinging disaster.


* Remember you don't own the anchorage nor even a little bit of it. Be welcoming and helpful to those coming after. Leave the "bitch wings" at home -- you will spoil your own evening, by being disagreeable with another cruiser.





Some people hate it when others anchor close by. I usually anchor in deep water (I have 330 feet of 1/2" chain) where others prefer not to be, but sometimes you can't avoid being in a crowded place -- especially somewhere, where shelter is scarce. In those situations, I am actually very glad to have others anchor close by and early in the afternoon -- this makes it possible to get all squared away, calmly, with people who arrived fresh and early, so that those arriving late and exhausted won't be the ones anchoring up next to you when you're already into your sundowners and in no mood to working the anchor or helping someone else.



Remember also that other boats usually look much closer than they are, and don't panic. Unless there is poor shelter and bad weather, boats rarely swing into each other at anchor, and even more rarely in a way which causes any damage. If in doubt, just put out fenders, if you don't feel like moving yourself.









When anchorages get really crowded, people anchor closer to each other than the diameter of their swinging circles, sometimes much closer. This is perfectly fine so long as boats are roughly similar with roughly similar amounts of scope out. So don't do anything which will make it hard for those coming later, to match your scope and swing together with you.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

* Try to match the scope of other boats, so that you swing together better. Don't use excessive scope.

Not replying to DH on this just using the thought

In general every time I've come into a crowded anchorage and went around looking for my "spot" and there were people on the boat and I asked them how much scope they had out they:

- didn't know
- told me a big number that later during swinging and the next day when I watched them pull it up was MUCH more than what they really had

I have always thought it would be a great thing if we could get an accepted practice going of writing how much scope you have out written on a big white board posted on the bow so everyone could see what you have out. Of course that would do nothing about the liars and I'm sorry to say that there are more of those than people believe.

[Mike OReilly]

How do you know about other people’s scope? Yes, ask, whenever possible. Observation is also the other obvious method. Of course, in my own little anecdote, my “grouchy-pants” neighbour told me how much out he had. Turns out he lied, or didn’t know himself.

Anchor buoys have some specific uses and benefits, but in busy anchorages they block out a larger area than is safely required, and hence stop other people from safely anchoring. They are a hazard for other boaters, and possibly the owner, so generally should be avoided.

The whole ‘first anchored rules the roost’ is an interesting academic perspective, but I honestly don’t understand how it is expected to operate in the real world. In a busy anchorage, unless you are the second boat to arrive, you generally have no idea who is first. There can be dozens or hundreds of boats, all coming and going all the time. How the heck is someone supposed to know who was first? When the “first” leaves, does the second become the first? This is not a useful way of approaching an anchoring challenge.

The best approach is to anchor safely given all information available. Yes, ask people about their anchor and rode when possible. Otherwise, assess the state of the anchorage. Determine, as best you can, scope and rode types and likely anchor locations. Then anchor properly and safely.

Maximizing distances between boats, being respectful of other people’s privacy and space (including any land structures), and also maximizing remaining space for other boats to come in, are other considerations. But safe, proper anchoring should be the guiding principle. "First rules the roost" is not a very useful or practical approach, except in very narrow circumstances.

[JPA Cate]

There seem to be different practices in different locations.

We have buoyed our anchor a couple of times, each time using a fender labelled with the boat's name for the buoy:

1) The first time was when we were first into a hurricane hole with a cyclone approaching, and wanted anyone else to come in to be able to see where our anchor was;

2) The second time was when we had to abandon an anchor and come back at low water slack the next day to retrieve it.

It is only my opinion, of course, but I think both times were a service to the community of cruisers, rather than an abuse of etiquette.....and neither were in shallow crowded anchorages.

As my Mom used to say, circumstances alter cases.

Ann