Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-03-2019, 10:16   #121
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,329
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
You. It is NOT because he laid 12:1. It is because he laid 12:1 and you decided it was safe to anchor within the swing radius. Think about how silly it would be for the court to try to decide for YOU how much scope is enough and how you should anchor? Impossible, just read any anchoring thread. So the first person may anchor as they see prudent. Perhaps he felt his anchor held poorly. Perhaps he has rope rode. Perhaps he felt differently about the weather forecast. Impossible to judge. He did what he felt was prudent and he did not drag.

This is like telling someone they don't know how to drive, because they drive differently from you, but when they have broken no law. All you can do is give them room.
Well, to carry on your driving analogy, we DO tell people how to drive. If someone veers across the lane and hits me, while I am driving as proscribed, then who is to blame? It’s more complicated in an anchoring situation, but in my anecdotal case, no one is going to claim 12:1 scope is reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
I though that this, from Dockhead, was well put: "But it does NOT indeed mean that a person who anchored first "rules the roost", or owns the seabed according to his own opinion about how much room he needs. This is a common misconception. A person coming later has the right to anchor the way he pleases, subject only to his responsibility in case of an accident. The earlier vessel has no right to do anything but move, in case he disagrees."
Agreed, but in the real world, when I come into an anchorage, in the absence of direct knowledge (which is the norm), all I can do is attempt to read the layout of the boats based on reasonable anchoring standards. A 12:1 scope is rarely a reasonable standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
But I don't get this statement (also Dockhead): "If someone's boat goes on the rocks because their prop got entangled [in your anchor float], it will be you paying, not them!"

In this case, they got tangled because they fouled gear that was already there. Following his prior logic, I'm pretty sure they are responsible. There have been court cases where boat A fouled boat B's rode and was held responsible. Same logic.
Makes sense to me. An anchor float is rarely “reasonable.”
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 12:10   #122
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,296
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
. . .But I don't get this statement (also Dockhead): "If someone's boat goes on the rocks because their prop got entangled [in your anchor float], it will be you paying, not them!"


In this case, they got tangled because they fouled gear that was already there. Following his prior logic, I'm pretty sure they are responsible. There have been court cases where boat A fouled boat B's rode and was held responsible. Same logic.


BTW, I hate anchor floats.

You are correct, that if someone comes later, and gets tangled in your anchor rode or other gear which is reasonably laid, the later coming vessel will be primarily responsible.


But "primarily" doesn't mean "exclusively", and rarely is anyone exclusively responsible in case of some kind of accident at sea. A good example is the fairly common case where anchored ships bear part of the liability in case a ship underway runs into them.



Furthermore, if the accident results from your doing something grossly unseamanlike, like using an anchor float in a crowded anchorage, then on the contrary, you are going to be primarily responsible for an accident, not the boat which came later and somehow got tangled up in your gear.




That's what I meant. It's all part of the same theme, incidentally -- just because you were first, doesn't mean you can do whatever you want including something daft like put down 12:1 scope in calm weather and good holding, or, much worse, use one of those infernal floats. You are at all times, coming first, coming second, coming whatever, responsible for due care and good seamanship and doing everything you can to prevent an accident, and if you fail to do so, you will get at least part of the liability.


I don't think in Mike's case he would have a good chance in court complaining about the 12:1 scope, because somewhat excessive scope is not as obviously or egregiously poor seamanship as using a float in a crowded anchorage. But you could certainly argue it, and chances are good that at least some of the liability will be assigned as a result.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 12:19   #123
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York, New York
Boat: Dufour Safari 27'
Posts: 1,914
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

One must also remember that being held responsible is different than paying. I've come across a few boats that didn't have insurance nor the means to pay. Luckily for me (so far!) it wasn't my boat that was hit.
ArmyDaveNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 12:37   #124
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,329
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...I don't think in Mike's case he would have a good chance in court complaining about the 12:1 scope, because somewhat excessive scope is not as obviously or egregiously poor seamanship as using a float in a crowded anchorage. But you could certainly argue it, and chances are good that at least some of the liability will be assigned as a result.
No disagreement. What the law says, and what is just or fair, are not necessarily the same.

To extend my scenario, here to me is an even more likely real-world event:

Mid-sized anchorage. Can easily accommodate say 1/2 dozen boats if they anchor reasonably. I come in. See three or four anchored closer together, and one off to one side. It’s light airs and calm in the anchorage. I do my normal pass through, examine anchored boats, the rodes, and assessing the likely bottom.

The best spot will likely be someplace closer to the single boat. But what if it turns out this is Mr. Grumpy-Pants with his 12:1 scope? How the heck can I know this a-priori? What if Mr GP was actually the fourth boat into the anchorage, but decided to put out his 12:1 even though everyone else is at an appropriate 5-7:1? He disregarded the “first in” guide and now occupies 1/2 the anchorage.

Outside of other not-easily accessible data, I have to assume boats are anchored appropriately. Basic standards of seamanship matter, just like standards of how to drive. There is a reasonableness test in most civil matters. If we go bump in the night, you bet I’ll be arguing for at least a shared liability ruling.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 13:28   #125
CLOD
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,486
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

once the blame game starts, ..................................everyone has lost
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 14:37   #126
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,710
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Well, to carry on your driving analogy, we DO tell people how to drive. If someone veers across the lane and hits me, while I am driving as proscribed, then who is to blame? It’s more complicated in an anchoring situation, but in my anecdotal case, no one is going to claim 12:1 scope is reasonable.
False comparison. He performed an action; if we were sailing this is a rules-of-the road question, and he is basically in the position of an overtaking boat (give way).


Agreed, but in the real world, when I come into an anchorage, in the absence of direct knowledge (which is the norm), all I can do is attempt to read the layout of the boats based on reasonable anchoring standards. A 12:1 scope is rarely a reasonable standard.

The case history says mooring it is up to the judgment of the captain. There is no applicable standard of reasonableness.

Makes sense to me. An anchor float is rarely “reasonable.”
Again, many people believe it is reasonable and it is in many books. You had a duty to stay clear, he was anchored, and you were still moving.

I agree the long-scope guy is a pain, but I'm pretty sure he is on solid legal ground. Remember that right and legal are two separate concepts. His argument is pretty simple; I was here first and your actions caused the collision. He was there first, and if you had anchored elsewhere, no collision. You didn't NEED to anchor there, you just wanted to. Try to convince a cop or judge that it was OK to park in a no parking zone because the lot was full. He won't care if you faced a 2-mile walk.


I also don't like floats, but that does not change the law. There are a lot of things I don't like that are legal.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
https://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 14:39   #127
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Jersey City, NJ
Boat: longing for a trimaran
Posts: 78
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Newbie here... but wouldn't it be a fair assumption that the boat that has anchored there before you is more familiar with the anchorage and its properties than one who has just arrived. You can view him as unfriendly or friendly -- just giving you advise. Either way, the decision and the consequences become yours.
tatomaceda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 15:40   #128
CLOD
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,486
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by tatomaceda View Post
Newbie here... but wouldn't it be a fair assumption that the boat that has anchored there before you is more familiar with the anchorage and its properties than one who has just arrived.
No it wouldn’t
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 17:35   #129
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, in Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,839
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by tatomaceda View Post
Newbie here... but wouldn't it be a fair assumption that the boat that has anchored there before you is more familiar with the anchorage and its properties than one who has just arrived. You can view him as unfriendly or friendly -- just giving you advise. Either way, the decision and the consequences become yours.

Hello, tatomaceda,

To expand on SailorBoy1's statement, not sure if you mean "fair assumption" as in "correct" or "not unfair", but what happens is that the other guy could be just as much of a newbie as you, just arrived a little earlier. You can't really tell from the outside if the person there is Mike's Mr. Grumpy Pants, some one experienced, or inexperienced, whether they dove the anchor or not. They're just there, and you have to stay out of their way.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 18:14   #130
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,710
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

^^ And don't assume because someone is there that it is a good place to anchor. Don't assume anything.


Anchoring is such a weird topic. A mixture of facts, engineering, experience, lore, opinion, and mysticism. And some times we confuse them.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
https://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2019, 04:31   #131
CLOD
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,486
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post


Anchoring is such a weird topic. A mixture of facts, engineering, experience, lore, opinion, and mysticism. And some times we confuse them.
and it's made to sound so complex
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2019, 07:14   #132
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

In this type of situation I cruise by and ask how much scope he has out before dropping the hook. After settling in I use a Leica Disto E7500 to take a measurement so if he complains I can say with certainty that I am X number of feet from him.
Bob
KK42-41
seadog47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2019, 07:43   #133
Registered User
 
CptCrunchie's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Sequim, WA
Boat: 1982 Irwin 46 MkII
Posts: 284
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by seadog47 View Post
In this type of situation I cruise by and ask how much scope he has out before dropping the hook. After settling in I use a Leica Disto E7500 to take a measurement so if he complains I can say with certainty that I am X number of feet from him.
Bob
KK42-41
Wow! $500 for a range finder? Those are expensive!

The GolfBuddy is only $113, and it is very accurate.
CptCrunchie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2019, 07:49   #134
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

I found boaters up in BC and further north generally were pretty good at anchoring, better than down in Mexico anyway (my theory is because south cali has so few decent anchorages, a lot of people from there don't get much practice at it before they head south)

I haven't had a problem in 5 years of boating anyway, closest I came to it was a 70' ferro that was swinging differently to me in a very tight San Diego anchorage in light wind, and we both fended off by hand and then sat and had a nice chat while waiting to see what the wind would do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptCrunchie View Post
Wow! $500 for a range finder? Those are expensive!

The GolfBuddy is only $113, and it is very accurate.
I often cheat and use my radar
__________________
www.saildivefish.ca
alctel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2019, 08:04   #135
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1
Re: When neighboring boat disagrees

Offer a beer and conduct a brief class on anchoring.
ras1974sib is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
boat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible? tomjack Seamanship & Boat Handling 118 23-10-2018 11:33
Somebody Disagrees With You? svmariane Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 20 17-09-2013 07:30

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.