Written from a child's perspective

[JPA Cate]

Gentle suggestion for Gadagirl, SailorSailor, and everyone else. Do read the 1000 Hour Day. It is only an "n" of one, but there are so many of them!

To SailorSailor, I don't know if you are able to do this because it is such a huge ask....... It is that you're an intelligent person, with the good of his own kids in mind, and fairly certain that you've done the very best by them that you can do. And that's a lovely position to be in.

But to condemn the cruising lifestyle as a good one in which to raise children on the basis of an "n" of one, when there are so many cruising children to which such condemnation does not apply, seems as if you've really not looked at the other sides of the question.

Ann, the girl when asked by her girlfriend's boyfriend, "How does it feel to have a failed marriage?" answered, "No failure, all kids are self supporting, and don't do drugs." The year was about 1981 or so. He was a divorced family lawyer from Massachusetts.

[alctel]

Damn, those were some truely terrible parents, I'm glad that she was able to overcome that and become a success but the whole thing sounds awful.

Lol@ the guy though who insists his hyper suburban north-american way of raising children is the only way to raise children. I'm sure they are great kids and very happy but he doesn't seem to realise that that is a pretty unusual way to raise children in most of the world (even in the west)

[Fore and Aft]

I have been deliberately antagonistic on this thread because as a parent of one teenager and a tween I know depending on the day they could write a memoir to throw us under the bus. I am always sceptical of teenage recollections when you consider teens like ours cannot even remember who did the dishes last night and whose turn it is to take the rubbish out.
Cheers

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Some are overestimating the substance of the thought process on this forum in general, and this thread in particular. What accounts for the vast majority of responses here is simply bias. The responses are emotional, not logical. Some refuse to think through the implications of making an unusual, limiting choice for their children.
..........

Yeah, there probably is a little bit of that going on but the idea that the responses haven't been logical or supported by fact is wrong.

Ultimately, this is like saying since she grew up in a family that always drove Fords, clearly Fords are horrible for kids.

The cruising aspect is largely incidental. Abusive and irresponsible parents are abusive and irresponsible regardless of the setting. Nothing about the story speaks to it being because of cruising.

[jleonar]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

According to one of your earlier threads, you are considering buying your first keel boat so you can move your family aboard. Although you consider yourself an expert in what is best for your child, you apparently have no liveaboard or extended cruising experience.

So, you are taking a huge leap into the unknown. You might want to think that over. You have already decided on a course of action in an area in which you lack significant experience. I am not even sure your plans would make you a "cruiser", or merely a liveaboard.

Just FYI, I am a second generation sailor. I grew up sailing on boats. I cannot count the number of days and nights I have spent aboard. I am always happy to return home after spending time living aboard a boat.

My opinion is the smart thing to do is to wait until your children are adults, then go world cruising.

I find it typical that you challenge people in a very narrow specific way, yet when people turn that around on you, you have no answers.



Your opinion wasn't actually asked for. I asked for you to cite any peer reviewed studies that support your position which you have failed to do good sir.


EDIT: I also find it hilarious you went through my post history trying to find a "gotcha" which you failed to do.

[Sailor Sailor]

O.K. Here is a peer-reviewed study of an analogous subject matter for you: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3461...19%20pandemic.

Title: Social isolation and its impact on child and adolescent development: a systematic review

Conclusions: The review shows a strong association between social isolation and anxiety and depression in children and adolescents. Social isolation leads to higher levels of cortisol and worse cognitive development. Therefore, the mental and physical health of children and adolescents need a careful follow up by health professionals during and after the COVID-19 pandemic.


The pandemic caused children to be isolated with their parents in their residence, with fewer outlets than normal, very similar to life confined aboard a small boat for extended periods of time.

This seems like common sense to me. Either you get it or you don't.

I did research your postings, because your replies to this thread came out of nowhere and seemed particularly adverse and accusatory. I was somewhat shocked to read your extreme views when you have zero or very little experience with actually living aboard a small boat. It is not a gotcha, but, given your hostility, family life aboard a small cruising boat seems a colossal mistake for all involved.

No worries. In my line of work, I get called every name in the book on a regular basis by angry, emotional people, so I have developed a thick hide.

[jleonar]

I agree with the meta-analysis of the study.


What you don't seem to understand is that being a liveaboard does not equal social isolation.



Again, I have pointed out that I have done a significant amount of research on families who are actually doing what I intend to do.


We chartered a boat with a captain that did exactly what we are planning to do except his kids were younger when he did it. His experience was that he and about 4 other boats with children around the same ages as his, spent months on end hanging out all the time.



Just because you might become a hermit if you did the liveaboard lifestyle doesn't mean everyone else is going to live that way.



I have pointed out there are whole facebook groups for families sailing where they specifically post about where they are going to be and the ages of their kids. All so kids can be around other kids.


In talking to many people who currently do it, they all talk about spending entire sailing seasons with their "buddy" boats.



That isn't social isolation. You are the person who has made up their mind without a bit of data to support their position.

[alctel]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

O.K. Here is a peer-reviewed study of an analogous subject matter for you: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3461...19%20pandemic.

Title: Social isolation and its impact on child and adolescent development: a systematic review

Conclusions: The review shows a strong association between social isolation and anxiety and depression in children and adolescents. Social isolation leads to higher levels of cortisol and worse cognitive development. Therefore, the mental and physical health of children and adolescents need a careful follow up by health professionals during and after the COVID-19 pandemic.


The pandemic caused children to be isolated with their parents in their residence, with fewer outlets than normal, very similar to life confined aboard a small boat for extended periods of time.

This seems like common sense to me. Either you get it or you don't.

I did research your postings, because your replies to this thread came out of nowhere and seemed particularly adverse and accusatory. I was somewhat shocked to read your extreme views when you have zero or very little experience with actually living aboard a small boat. It is not a gotcha, but, given your hostility, family life aboard a small cruising boat seems a colossal mistake for all involved.

No worries. In my line of work, I get called every name in the book on a regular basis by angry, emotional people, so I have developed a thick hide.

Not being mean, but have you actually met any families who live on boats? Or who have kids on boats? Because your mental image seems to be of kids stuck on a boat with their parents and isolated for weeks and months on end which has very little to do with my observed reality when cruising - and I don't even have kids.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by jleonar

...
What you don't seem to understand is that being a liveaboard does not equal social isolation. ...

Once upon a time we attended a boat show where we met a bunch of people whom we "knew" from the Internet. We spent days with the boat builder, owners, the designer and other people interested in these boats. We were spending all day talking about the boat, its design, building, places to see etc. At night we were going out as a group to eat dinner and We were invited to take the boat at the show back to it's home berth. On the trip back, there was a bunch of people on board and we had an interesting conversation about the people we had just met and spent so much time together.

These people, were quite diverse in their background but all wanted to get away from it all, see other places, and meet people. It seemed that the group leaned sorta to the introvert side but they became extroverts talking about the boat and going places.

A few years later we were on a trawler in Europe, and while the views were stunning, it was the interactions with people is what made the trip. We met soooo many interesting people, that we likely would not have met if traveling by land. In fact, a few years later, we did travel by land, spent more time in Europe but met less people than we did when on a boat. We still met some interesting people, and had a great time, but it was less than when we were on a boat.

The wife and I were just talking about one of the reasons to travel by boat was because of the people interactions the boat seems to encourage.

Later,
Dan

[JPA Cate]

Taking one's children cruising could be socially isolating, but usually, in my observation isn't. A lot depends on the parenting skills of their moms and dads. When they are under ten, they pick up the local languages like sponges, and they socialize, not with their own class, so much, but with all the children whom they encounter. Once they've "got" the language learning set, on into their teens, they relate with whoever's around, picking up not only new languages but also new games quickly. Also, the opportunity to experience schools in foreign countries can be very broadening.

In our experience, cruising kids relate well to adults, and, because of being given real jobs aboard, they have self confidence they've earned via watch keeping and other chores that make life on the boat run smoothly. I actually think farm kids in the US may be more isolated than most cruising kids; and the enriching environment may be way less limited.

A full time schedule of activities is isolating in a different way, it isolates the young person from experiencing adult meaningful activities, especially as related to problem solving, and the associated success and frustrations; denies them solitary time for contemplation and learning to handle boredom; and creates children who may grow up with less social skills, and fewer practical ones. It's great Sailor Sailor's kids are in Gifted Programs. In our family's experience, usually the teachers were really good, too, and possibly more dedicated, which helps. However, gifted kids are a special case. Try and get funding for gifted programs in the South, or Harlem, for instance. Gifted kids are a minority. Take a look at the overall picture of education in the US at this time.

When Emily's family took her and her brother out of school in the UK, I think the parents did provide some schooling for her, in the beginning. They fell down in the areas where they themselves lacked knowledge...and empathy. One would expect a range of reactions on the part of young people to cruising lifestyles, in any event, would you not think?

Ann

[bullislandken]

In 2002 we brought our two children, ages 8 and 11, when we left the US on a 30 ft double ender for a couple years. My daughter was 13 and my son 10 when we returned to the US and they both returned to their same public schools with more or less their same friends. Both my kids played and excelled in high school sports and their grades slipped from A’s in 2004 when we first returned, to B’s as they went through high school.

My daughter relished the cruising experience and matured a lot on the boat. But I don’t think my daughter as a 14 year-old would have been happy on the boat.

My daughter has a masters in architecture and recently had a baby, our first grandchild. She likes her career and will try working part time for a while.

My son has struggled. Maybe it was a bad time to leave his friends behind. I have gone to therapy with him and the 2 year trip doesn’t come up much. Mostly he blames me for us living 9 miles from our town of Whitefish, Montana. He said that messed up his socialization. We did bring him to visit friends’ and he often stayed overnight in town at his friends. I got him a car at 16 so he could drive himself.

My son is 29 now and mostly blames me for making the family do things that were mostly for me and not the family. My wife does not agree with him. I called our neighbors with kids and they say their children loved living rurally like my daughter says she did.

I don’t doubt I showed some inappropriate behavior at times but NEVER towards my children. I have apologized for my bad behavior (mostly getting angry at others behavior) and accepted my son’s anger towards me.

We have helped our son financially and many other ways a lot. He has an electrical engineering degree but his first job turned out bad so now he works for the US postal service. 5 years of wasted education? I don’t think so. I was a geologist for 10 years after undergraduate. The travel led us to a separation. I quit and became a custom home builder doing timber frame home construction that is very energy efficient. So for 25 years of my career, I didn’t use my geological background very much. I am still glad I went to college. I learned more ways to learn.

Presently I have an accepted offer on my “last” ocean boat. My wife at 65 is “done” living on boats but I hope my kids will visit, then my wife will, too!

I had horrible parenting and witnessed my dad’s temper EVERY DAY working with him from 5 years old to 14. I revolted at 14 and we came “back” to working together at 16 but it was horrible for me. It did impact my socialization and I experienced low self esteem but in high schools and college I seemed to do ok.

Does taking your kids for two years to see how others live and see dark skinned people in other cultures hurt their development? I can’t say for sure but 3 out of 4 of us found it to be a positive life changing experience.

I always tell folks we were living the dream but it is not without stresses. We tended to buddy boat with others with children and age differences didn’t matter much. The weather, anchoring, fixing the boat, visiting 22 countries, etc., was all stressful but worth it for me.

I wish we could have kept going in 2004 but I am sure the family would have revolted.

And NOW I get the bigger boat….and I will be solo for sure, at times. See ya out there.

[MicHughV]

I rarely read thru' a whole thread but this one really piqued my attention.

The other side of the story.....I was shipped off to a Catholic boarding school at the young age of 9 years old.
I had little choice in the matter. My parents thought the heavy handed discipline of this place would set me on the road of righteousness, where I'd learn to be a good upstanding citizen contributing to the nation. My dad also wanted me out of his hair, considering me to be a bit too rambunctious for his temperament.

It was the boarding school from hell as I remember the place. The school grounds was pretty much the only stomping ground available to me. I became an expert at disappearing.

It was hard to make friends you only saw during the school term. I was extremely envious of the boys in my home town, as they all had girlfriends, cars, motorcycles, parties, etc, whereas I had zilch.

Nonetheless, this period of time gave me time to reflect on what I wanted to do with my life. A National Geographic article about the adventures of Robin Lee Graham sailing around the world hove into view and really appealed to me. This...I thought....is what I was meant to do. Nobody to tell me what to do or where to go.

I relate this, as I had I been able to stay at home and hang with my friends there, I'd likely have been the righteous upstanding citizen my parents hoped I'd be.

Parental and school influence can impart a very big impact on a young child's life.

Fast forward a few years, met a girl, got married, and explained I wanted to build my own sailboat and sail around the world. A year into the building she came to me and said this is not for me. It was clear that my goal was not her goal, and she opted to take off. Could I have handled this better....of course, but I was simply too ill equipped to do so.

I completed my build and set off. Looking back, it took me about 10 years to undo the crap foisted on me by parents and boarding school and my failed marriage

I think a lot of people on this planet are on a track not of their making, but the making of others.
Conversely, there are many that are on a track of their own making, and not that of others.

For sure, one thing stands out to me. Many things, parents, environments, culture, country of origin, etc, etc, all play a part in sculpting an individual and imparting ideas and thoughts that may or may not jive with that person.

I can relate to the young girl in this tale. I can also relate to the many points of view expressed here.

I don't think there is a one size fits all as there are simply too many variables to consider.

[Fore and Aft]

MicHughV that sums up my opinion as well. There's no one size fits all answer. That's what is so cool about being human. We're all the same, but with slight variations caused by any number of factors. My kids weren't born with an instruction manual so you do the best you can.
Bullislandken I think your being to hard on yourself. One of my best friends growing up blamed all his issues later in life on his parents not on his own bad decisions. His parents were great and didn't deserve the BS he put them through later in life.
Sailor Sailor using a Covid related study is not really a fair comparison. Covid was a snap decision lockdown that caused a big upheaval in everyone's life. Normally it takes a lot of planning and preparation before you go cruising, so children have plenty of time to adjust to a new reality. I bet if you did a study on people who were arrested and incarcerated for the first time you would find similar results. I bet I would suffer anxiety,. Depression and social isolation.
Cheers

[Gadagirl]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The usual CF over anal-ysis..
Thanks for posting the alternate perspective Gadagirl.

Thanks Boaty

I posted because I am clearly passionate about children's rights, protection, and believe they should have some input to family decision. Decisions that effect their future, their immediate comfort and happiness.

It just kinda startles me. The usual people that are all pro safety, prep for voyage, take off your rose colored glasses , don't set sail unless you have an understanding of the sacrifices it entails. Don't voyage unless you've started on a small boat from a young age and build up to larger. Don't leave the coast unless you're like me because otherwise you'll die!

And then they get their panties twisted in their a$$ crack when you share a story about 1, ONE, ONE! person that wrote about how it was not so lovely being a child without experience or pre-aquired skills was dragged upon an ocean voyage where she was seriously injured. But that's okay because many other children didn't experience the same. It's just ridiculous.

. And it does come down to her particular parents. Which does happen everyday, and every where, land or sea. I'm not understanding the amount of push back. It seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

[boatman61]

Also comparisons to the 'Covid Effect' is invalid because that was a period of fear, aggression, paranoia along with enforced isolation and the Us vs Them Factor.