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Gadagirl · 05-04-2023, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannc

That child was learning to be an adult, a course that seems to lacking in our modern education system.

The following history tid bit is boating related.... I promise.

In the early-mid 1800's, a young man named A.T. Mahon was sent off to boarding school at the age of 12. A couple of years later, around the age of 14, he went to Columbia University. After a few more years and not wanting to do as his father suggested, A. T. Mahon managed to get into the US Naval Academy.

His father, D. H. Mahon, wanted his son to go to West Point. D. H. Mahon was a professor at West Point and a leading theorist of the day on land warfare. Any officer who went through West Point, and fought in the US Civil War, was taught by D. H. Mahon. A.T. Mahon had grown up at West Point and I suspect did not want to be under the shadow of his father.

At the time, an appointment to West Point was much more prestigious than the Naval Academy which was a smaller and younger institution. At the age of 16 or so, A. T Mahon, traveled by boat and stage coach to Washington, DC to visit the Secretary of War at the War Department which is now the Department of Defense.

A. T. Mahon met with the Secretary of War, a man named Jefferson Davis, to negotiate a way to get into the Naval Academy. A. T. Mahon had an appointment to West Point but wanted to go to the Naval Academy instead. Since a West Point appointment was more prestigious than the Naval Academy, a swap was arranged.

A. T. Mahon would serve in the US Civil War and Spanish American War but he really was not that good of a sailor. He is best known as the writer of The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_In...r_upon_History, which is still relevant today.

What I found interesting about the above, is that a teenager that was around 16 or so, traveled by stage coach and boat over many days, to talk to a high level government official, to negotiate a deal to change his appointment.

Letting a kid travel by themselves these days is considered by some as child abuse.... I would think A. T. Mahon built some confidence after that trip...

Later,
Dan

Truly admirable stories about mature for their age as well as intelligent and resourceful for their age children. They accomplished great things. As did the the author of this article. Doesn't mean their parents deserve the credit for their success. Just means they rose above their circumstances because they had internal confidence and probably above average intelligence.most likely smarter than their parents.

Genetically inherited intelligence and traits. Environmentally road blocks were thrown up and overcome. Not every child has internal confidence or natural intelligence. Land or sea. It's just one story that goes against what anecdotally most cruisers find about children they've met cruising. And it seemingly disturbs them. Just try to read it with the perception that it's 1 in 1000 or other such statistic.

Yes. This is a one off story about a kid that didn't like cruising. Get over yourselves! Yes it happens every where. Land dwelling especially. Because, anecdotally more children are raised on land. It's statistics.

It has nothing whatever to do with the state of education in any country at any place in time. It has to do with a person so determined to educate herself because she saw it as a ticket to her freedom and was resolute on obtaining an education. not all children thrive with home schooling. Not all thrive in structured education. This isn't about current political battles on education. It's about how she educated herself to improve herself in spite of parental neglect. Very few children have that natural drive. Most need at least encouragement and support. She had neither.

SV_FlyingTigress · 05-04-2023, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gadagirl

It has nothing whatever to do with the state of education in any country at any place in time. It has to do with a person so determined to educate herself because she saw it as a ticket to her freedom and was resolute on obtaining an education. not all children thrive with home schooling. Not all thrive in structured education. This isn't about current political battles on education. It's about how she educated herself to improve herself in spite of parental neglect. Very few children have that natural drive. Most need at least encouragement and support. She had neither.

^ Yup

AKA-None · 05-04-2023, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannc

That child was learning to be an adult, a course that seems to lacking in our modern education system.

The following history tid bit is boating related.... I promise.

In the early-mid 1800's, a young man named A.T. Mahon was sent off to boarding school at the age of 12. A couple of years later, around the age of 14, he went to Columbia University. After a few more years and not wanting to do as his father suggested, A. T. Mahon managed to get into the US Naval Academy.

His father, D. H. Mahon, wanted his son to go to West Point. D. H. Mahon was a professor at West Point and a leading theorist of the day on land warfare. Any officer who went through West Point, and fought in the US Civil War, was taught by D. H. Mahon. A.T. Mahon had grown up at West Point and I suspect did not want to be under the shadow of his father.

At the time, an appointment to West Point was much more prestigious than the Naval Academy which was a smaller and younger institution. At the age of 16 or so, A. T Mahon, traveled by boat and stage coach to Washington, DC to visit the Secretary of War at the War Department which is now the Department of Defense.

A. T. Mahon met with the Secretary of War, a man named Jefferson Davis, to negotiate a way to get into the Naval Academy. A. T. Mahon had an appointment to West Point but wanted to go to the Naval Academy instead. Since a West Point appointment was more prestigious than the Naval Academy, a swap was arranged.

A. T. Mahon would serve in the US Civil War and Spanish American War but he really was not that good of a sailor. He is best known as the writer of The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_In...r_upon_History, which is still relevant today.

What I found interesting about the above, is that a teenager that was around 16 or so, traveled by stage coach and boat over many days, to talk to a high level government official, to negotiate a deal to change his appointment.

Letting a kid travel by themselves these days is considered by some as child abuse.... I would think A. T. Mahon built some confidence after that trip...

Later,
Dan

My exchange student like many others had to go into a U.S. embassy and get permission to come to the United States

No parents allowed

14 yo German citizen

Gadagirl · 05-04-2023, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKA-None

My exchange student like many others had to go into a U.S. embassy and get permission to come to the United States

No parents allowed

14 yo German citizen

And no doubt her parents drove her to her appointment. And her parents, teachers, you, her school system, your school system, all gave her support and guidance to navigate that system. Not diminishing all that an exchange student has to handle. Different languages and cultures. Being far from home. But generally exchange students have a support system in place that includes their parents and other responsible adults.

Fore and Aft · 05-04-2023, 19:23

Gadagirl I would like to see some verification of the story, surely some of the people mentioned are still alive and can give their version of events? Obviously for Suzanne, her childhood was traumatic enough for her to write about. I personally never understand the point of these traumatic stories unless the author hopes to cash in on it? Sure, it might be a type of therapy but I bet this book would sink without a trace without the boat angle.
Lots of these memoirs are often found out to be exaggerated. Who remembers "A million little peices" by James Frey? It started out being sold as a memoir and then ended up being sold as a semi fictional novel. He sold 8 million copies so I bet James couldn't care less what people think.
The books being published in April so it will be interesting to see if anyone steps forward with a different recollection.
Cheers

**Jim Cate** · 07-04-2023, 00:35

I would like to point you all to another book about life of a cruising child, written by said cruising child... a book with a rather different point of view!

The book, The 1000 Hour Day, is written by Chris Bray, who, along with his sister spent 5 years circumnavigating with his parents on their home built alloy yacht Starship. I will not spoil the story, but to say that his adventures and his life so far (now in his thirties) are in stark contrast to that of Ms Heywood is a gross understatement.

Ann and I have had the pleasure of knowing the Bray family for many years, and were frequent visitors to the Bray home whilst the adventure described in the book was being born. Chris has lived a vigorous, interesting and so far successful life, following the dreams generated by his young life on the yacht.

I think you would all find the story a good read and a vivid rebuttal of Ms Heywoods experiences.

Jim

Sailor Sailor · 07-04-2023, 06:47

Some are overestimating the substance of the thought process on this forum in general, and this thread in particular. What accounts for the vast majority of responses here is simply bias. The responses are emotional, not logical. Some refuse to think through the implications of making an unusual, limiting choice for their children.

Here is the extent of complexity of the thought process or decision tree for many of the responses (and this extends to many controversial topics here – contributing to YouTubers, cruising kids, buying an AWB for bluewater cruising, etc.):

Encourages or promotes sailing – favor it.

Discourages or criticizes sailing – opposed to it.

Further, the nature of the responses is telling. Instead of using logic or considering the pros and cons with a balanced approach or cost-benefit analysis, emotional responses generate ad hominem attacks, all or nothing replies, and anecdotal responses. The ad hominem attacks include attacking the author, attacking the parents, attacking anyone who writes an abuse memoir, attacking anyone who supports the author, etc. Here is a typical anecdotal response: I met cruising kids who were o.k., therefore, it is o.k. to take kids cruising. That is faulty logic.

Obviously, raising kids on a boat involves limitations. The mere physical limitation of a smaller space with fewer opportunities for movement while underway for extended periods of time is simply a reality. If you refuse to acknowledge that as a disadvantage in advancing your argument, you are not being objective.

Here is an example of a logical argument on this topic: “I realize that a sailboat imposes limitations on all the physical options and opportunities available to a child, but I still think it is worth it because of X,Y, Z…” I don’t believe I saw a single one of those responses.

jleonar · 07-04-2023, 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Some are overestimating the substance of the thought process on this forum in general, and this thread in particular. What accounts for the vast majority of responses here is simply bias. The responses are emotional, not logical. Some refuse to think through the implications of making an unusual, limiting choice for their children.

Here is the extent of complexity of the thought process or decision tree for many of the responses (and this extends to many controversial topics here – contributing to YouTubers, cruising kids, buying an AWB for bluewater cruising, etc.):

Encourages or promotes sailing – favor it.

Discourages or criticizes sailing – opposed to it.

Further, the nature of the responses is telling. Instead of using logic or considering the pros and cons with a balanced approach or cost-benefit analysis, emotional responses generate ad hominem attacks, all or nothing replies, and anecdotal responses. The ad hominem attacks include attacking the author, attacking the parents, attacking anyone who writes an abuse memoir, attacking anyone who supports the author, etc. Here is a typical anecdotal response: I met cruising kids who were o.k., therefore, it is o.k. to take kids cruising. That is faulty logic.

Obviously, raising kids on a boat involves limitations. The mere physical limitation of a smaller space with fewer opportunities for movement while underway for extended periods of time is simply a reality. If you refuse to acknowledge that as a disadvantage in advancing your argument, you are not being objective.

Here is an example of a logical argument on this topic: “I realize that a sailboat imposes limitations on all the physical options and opportunities available to a child, but I still think it is worth it because of X,Y, Z…” I don’t believe I saw a single one of those responses.

And everyone one of your responses has been the same nonsense.

So how about this for you to answer.

"I realize that raising children in suburbia imposes limitations on exposure to other cultures, real skills, and life experiences available to a child but I still think it is worth it because X,Y,Z."

Everything you have stated as a limitation on living on a boat is your OPINION. It isn't fact. For someone who wants to go down the logical argument path, you sure don't have a single logical augment backed up by any facts in this thread.

I have rebutted the nonsense you have spewed yet you just ignore and add nothing more to the thread but more projection from your side.

Sailor Sailor · 07-04-2023, 09:14

There are lots of reasons for a land-based childhood in my posts numbered 3, 15, and 18.

Thanks for proving my assertion about emotional posts.

Can you now write a persuasive, objective, balanced, logical post now?

japawil · 07-04-2023, 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

There are lots of reasons for a land-based childhood in my posts numbered 3, 15, and 18.

Thanks for proving my assertion about emotional posts.

Can you now write a persuasive, objective, balanced, logical post now?

https://www.seventeen.com/life/real-...ive-on-a-boat/

Another prospective……

jleonar · 07-04-2023, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

There are lots of reasons for a land-based childhood in my posts numbered 3, 15, and 18.

Thanks for proving my assertion about emotional posts.

Can you now write a persuasive, objective, balanced, logical post now?

How about this........

My youngest son has ADHD. Therefore, we have seen fit to help him with therapy.

So when my wife and I started to discuss our plans to move onto a sailboat, guess what we did? We talked to his pediatrician and we discussed it with his therapist.

Guess what? Both feel the lifestyle we are talking about is going to be greatly beneficial for our kids.

It seems that I have done far more research and discussion with experts in the field than you have. So again, I say you haven't done a single bit of research.

Prove me wrong. Please cite one single peer reviewed study that supports your view points. I will be waiting.

I like how you try to attribute all these emotions to my posts. Once again projection on your part.

japawil · 07-04-2023, 10:05

And yet another prospective……

https://offbeathome.com/raising-kid-on-boat/

Sailor Sailor · 07-04-2023, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleonar

It seems that I have done far more research and discussion with experts in the field than you have. So again, I say you haven't done a single bit of research.

Prove me wrong. .

According to one of your earlier threads, you are considering buying your first keel boat so you can move your family aboard. Although you consider yourself an expert in what is best for your child, you apparently have no liveaboard or extended cruising experience.

So, you are taking a huge leap into the unknown. You might want to think that over. You have already decided on a course of action in an area in which you lack significant experience. I am not even sure your plans would make you a "cruiser", or merely a liveaboard.

Just FYI, I am a second generation sailor. I grew up sailing on boats. I cannot count the number of days and nights I have spent aboard. I am always happy to return home after spending time living aboard a boat.

My opinion is the smart thing to do is to wait until your children are adults, then go world cruising.

Gadagirl · 07-04-2023, 15:17

I was honestly only trying to inform and share. And although I'm happy there is a healthy discussion I'm not fond of reading the defensive attacks.

Yes, yes, yes there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of examples of children cruising that are exemplary of developing well rounded educated children into productive well rounded educated adults without issues or regrets or baggage of abusive neglectful adults.

I should have titled it "One child's perspective"

But there is this one perspective that doesn't get much traction on sites like this. So I wanted to share it Perhaps it's more prevalent than we recognize? Perhaps not.

I'm not questioning her account, as some have, because just as on land there is a certain percentage of bad parenting everywhere. Totally believable to me that she endured what she did. Just because, anecdotally you think that you haven't met an abused child, that doesn't mean that they don't exist in your community. As a matter of fact you might have very well met an abused child but didn't realize it.

Abused children are often outwardly polite, socially "good" and well behaved. Appearance is everything! Their survival depends on it. Wouldn't want to disappoint mama or papa in front of strangers and be punished later. They are often not only physically punished (sometimes not physically abused at all) but mentally and emotionally manipulated.

You just don't know what you don't know. I'm not proposing it's prevalent in the cruising community. And it might actually be statistically Less prevalent But there aren't studies and data to draw on any conclusion.

I'm just saying, this one person had a bad experience as a child cruiser. And to my knowledge this experience and perspective hasn't been discussed much. The only other instant that child cruising was discussed seriously, and equally diversively, was when Rebel heart had to be rescued.

So yes. Most people. On land or cruising take good care of their children but not all do. So I'm sorry that her story causes you angnst. I'm not sorry because it should cause you to become more aware.