Written from a child's perspective

[alctel]

Originally Posted by Gadagirl

Thanks Boaty

I posted because I am clearly passionate about children's rights, protection, and believe they should have some input to family decision. Decisions that effect their future, their immediate comfort and happiness.

It just kinda startles me. The usual people that are all pro safety, prep for voyage, take off your rose colored glasses , don't set sail unless you have an understanding of the sacrifices it entails. Don't voyage unless you've started on a small boat from a young age and build up to larger. Don't leave the coast unless you're like me because otherwise you'll die!

And then they get their panties twisted in their a$$ crack when you share a story about 1, ONE, ONE! person that wrote about how it was not so lovely being a child without experience or pre-aquired skills was dragged upon an ocean voyage where she was seriously injured. But that's okay because many other children didn't experience the same. It's just ridiculous.

. And it does come down to her particular parents. Which does happen everyday, and every where, land or sea. I'm not understanding the amount of push back. It seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

I don't think it was the article that got peoples panties in a twist (especially since the parents in that article were unbelievably shitty parents), more the guy making blanket statements on child raising and declaring that everyone that doesn't follow his method of raising children (gifted classes, weeks full of afterschool activities) is tantamount to child abuse.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by alctel

I don't think it was the article that got peoples panties in a twist (especially since the parents in that article were unbelievably shitty parents), more the guy making blanket statements on child raising and declaring that everyone that doesn't follow his method of raising children (gifted classes, weeks full of afterschool activities) is tantamount to child abuse.

Exactly.

Later,
Dan

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^
My thoughts as well! No hypocrisy evidenced by relating some of the many successful cruising families stories to counterbalance the doom-sayer.

Jim

[Jfjunior]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I rarely read thru' a whole thread but this one really piqued my attention.

The other side of the story.....I was shipped off to a Catholic boarding school at the young age of 9 years old.
I had little choice in the matter. My parents thought the heavy handed discipline of this place would set me on the road of righteousness, where I'd learn to be a good upstanding citizen contributing to the nation. My dad also wanted me out of his hair, considering me to be a bit too rambunctious for his temperament.

It was the boarding school from hell as I remember the place. The school grounds was pretty much the only stomping ground available to me. I became an expert at disappearing.

It was hard to make friends you only saw during the school term. I was extremely envious of the boys in my home town, as they all had girlfriends, cars, motorcycles, parties, etc, whereas I had zilch. Now, when I read the articles on psychology here, I realize how hard it was for me at the time and how important it is to have a proper education in this field. children.

Nonetheless, this period of time gave me time to reflect on what I wanted to do with my life. A National Geographic article about the adventures of Robin Lee Graham sailing around the world hove into view and really appealed to me. This...I thought....is what I was meant to do. Nobody to tell me what to do or where to go.

I relate this, as I had I been able to stay at home and hang with my friends there, I'd likely have been the righteous upstanding citizen my parents hoped I'd be.

Parental and school influence can impart a very big impact on a young child's life.

Fast forward a few years, met a girl, got married, and explained I wanted to build my own sailboat and sail around the world. A year into the building she came to me and said this is not for me. It was clear that my goal was not her goal, and she opted to take off. Could I have handled this better....of course, but I was simply too ill equipped to do so.

I completed my build and set off. Looking back, it took me about 10 years to undo the crap foisted on me by parents and boarding school and my failed marriage

I think a lot of people on this planet are on a track not of their making, but the making of others.
Conversely, there are many that are on a track of their own making, and not that of others.

For sure, one thing stands out to me. Many things, parents, environments, culture, country of origin, etc, etc, all play a part in sculpting an individual and imparting ideas and thoughts that may or may not jive with that person.

I can relate to the young girl in this tale. I can also relate to the many points of view expressed here.

I don't think there is a one size fits all as there are simply too many variables to consider.

Sorry for the long quote, but your post touched me. I understand more than anyone what you wrote, and the phrase "a lot of people on this planet are on a track not of their making, but the making of others" is very accurate. The earlier one realizes that it is important to be what you want to be, not what someone wants you to be, the earlier life begins to be enjoyable.

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by alctel

... more the guy making blanket statements on child raising and declaring that everyone that doesn't follow his method of raising children (gifted classes, weeks full of afterschool activities) is tantamount to child abuse.

If you read my posts carefully, they were actually much more simpler points that are misconstrued:

1. Taking a minor child world cruising with you necessarily imposes limitations not found on land with occasional sailing. This is indisputable.

Numerous examples of this were given, including some obvious ones: your child will never become a concert pianist, a dancer, a team sports athlete. Your child will not have the same opportunities for ongoing, varied peer relationships and exposure to varied role models. There are many more less obvious limitations that follow from confining your child to a small space for extended periods of time, with social contact limited to parents for periods of time.

You can travel internationally and/or sail on weekends or family vacations and expose your child to the same experiences of cruising without the limitations.

2. These limitations are not in the best interests of the child. They are a choice of the parent imposed on the minor child. This is opinion and perhaps arguable.

Some of you seem to have reading comprehension problems or refuse to address these actual points. Some of you cannot argue civilly and instead create "strawman arguments" and ad hominen attacks. A strawman argument is when one creates a different point to argue against because he or she cannot address the merits of the actual argument.

Example: I never said children's time should be structured. Instead, children should be free to choose what they want to do at times, with a full variety of choices. They do not have all the options of those choices on a boat.

Second example: I never said children should be in gifted classes. The point is the vast majority of parents are simply not professional educators. Whether the child would be in gifted or special needs classes, there are opportunities on land-based schools that you simply cannot equal. The starting point is some humility: realizing you are not the ideal teacher for your child in terms of full academic achievement. You might be adequate, at best, for merely sufficient academic achievement. Exposure to a variety of educated, skilled, experienced professional teachers and numerous academic opportunities will always be better.

I believe the animosity present in this thread is because, deep down, some of you actually realize the above two bold points are true, but you do not like to acknowledge that, because you want to do what you want to do, not what is best for your minor children. You do not want to admit to yourself that you regard your own interests above those of your child, and you just want to justify your own choices. Of course, parenting choices are a touchy subject.

Ultimately, this is a matter of values. Marriage means sacrifice. Having minor children means sacrifice. That is a responsible, adult choice: you sacrifice yourself and your wants for the well-being of another. Some of you refuse this responsible, adult choice. The result is bad marriages and screwed-up, resentful, or limited offspring.

The article is an extreme example. Nevertheless, it raises an important general point about taking children cruising - it is not the best choice for the full development of the child.

I just hope my posts causes some considering this action to reconsider whether it is in the child's best interests.

[davil]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

If you read my posts carefully, they were actually much more simpler points that are misconstrued:

1. Taking a minor child world cruising with you necessarily imposes limitations not found on land with occasional sailing. This is indisputable.

Numerous examples of this were given, including some obvious ones: your child will never become a concert pianist, a dancer, a team sports athlete. Your child will not have the same opportunities for ongoing, varied peer relationships and exposure to varied role models. There are many more less obvious limitations that follow from confining your child to a small space for extended periods of time, with social contact limited to parents for periods of time.

You can travel internationally and/or sail on weekends or family vacations and expose your child to the same experiences of cruising without the limitations.

2. These limitations are not in the best interests of the child. They are a choice of the parent imposed on the minor child. This is opinion and perhaps arguable.

Some of you seem to have reading comprehension problems or refuse to address these actual points. Some of you cannot argue civilly and instead create "strawman arguments" and ad hominen attacks. A strawman argument is when one creates a different point to argue against because he or she cannot address the merits of the actual argument.

Example: I never said children's time should be structured. Instead, children should be free to choose what they want to do at times, with a full variety of choices. They do not have all the options of those choices on a boat.

Second example: I never said children should be in gifted classes. The point is the vast majority of parents are simply not professional educators. Whether the child would be in gifted or special needs classes, there are opportunities on land-based schools that you simply cannot equal. The starting point is some humility: realizing you are not the ideal teacher for your child in terms of full academic achievement. You might be adequate, at best, for merely sufficient academic achievement. Exposure to a variety of educated, skilled, experienced professional teachers and numerous academic opportunities will always be better.

I believe the animosity present in this thread is because, deep down, some of you actually realize the above two bold points are true, but you do not like to acknowledge that, because you want to do what you want to do, not what is best for your minor children. You do not want to admit to yourself that you regard your own interests above those of your child, and you just want to justify your own choices. Of course, parenting choices are a touchy subject.

Ultimately, this is a matter of values. Marriage means sacrifice. Having minor children means sacrifice. That is a responsible, adult choice: you sacrifice yourself and your wants for the well-being of another. Some of you refuse this responsible, adult choice. The result is bad marriages and screwed-up, resentful, or limited offspring.

The article is an extreme example. Nevertheless, it raises an important general point about taking children cruising - it is not the best choice for the full development of the child.

I just hope my posts causes some considering this action to reconsider whether it is in the child's best interests.

============================

[davil]

Originally Posted by bullislandken

In 2002 we brought our two children, ages 8 and 11, when we left the US on a 30 ft double ender

I wish we could have kept going in 2004 but I am sure the family would have revolted.

And NOW I get the bigger boat….and I will be solo for sure, at times. See ya out there.

========================================

truly enjoyed your posting and sharing your experiences.

perhaps because your life being no different from my own and more likely
quite similar to many of us who have begun a family and found out there was no "owner manual".

Just doing our best.

In reality, the cruising background to this lengthy thread is incidental, goes behind it and speaks to so many facets, all of them under the major headline LIFE.

How many times we see, same family dynamics where siblings develop so many different outcomes, some successful some not, some close family ties some not.


You have gone to therapy, trying to help your son, went the extra yard because of the love for your son, many will not have done it.

One of the stumbling blocks? there is no substitute for personal responsibility, when we stop being children, and stop blaming others for our shortcomings.

The particular story in this thread refers to a young girl that learned to make the best of what was available to her, good for her, not too different of my own life and so many others.

Adopting the cruising life is a humbling experience, not only provides opportunities to the many positive aspects, but also we face extreme challenging situations, some even life-threatening.

That life will provide a background to develop and reinforce "existing" family ties and maturity that only those circumstances can do.

Have emphasized "existing" because if we don't have a firm foundation, then again does not matter if cruising or suburbia lifestyle.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

If you read my posts carefully, they were actually much more simpler points that are misconstrued:

1. Taking a minor child world cruising with you necessarily imposes limitations not found on land with occasional sailing. This is indisputable.

Numerous examples of this were given, including some obvious ones: your child will never become a concert pianist, a dancer, a team sports athlete. Your child will not have the same opportunities for ongoing, varied peer relationships and exposure to varied role models. There are many more less obvious limitations that follow from confining your child to a small space for extended periods of time, with social contact limited to parents for periods of time.

You can travel internationally and/or sail on weekends or family vacations and expose your child to the same experiences of cruising without the limitations.

2. These limitations are not in the best interests of the child. They are a choice of the parent imposed on the minor child. This is opinion and perhaps arguable.

Some of you seem to have reading comprehension problems or refuse to address these actual points. Some of you cannot argue civilly and instead create "strawman arguments" and ad hominen attacks. A strawman argument is when one creates a different point to argue against because he or she cannot address the merits of the actual argument.

Example: I never said children's time should be structured. Instead, children should be free to choose what they want to do at times, with a full variety of choices. They do not have all the options of those choices on a boat.

Second example: I never said children should be in gifted classes. The point is the vast majority of parents are simply not professional educators. Whether the child would be in gifted or special needs classes, there are opportunities on land-based schools that you simply cannot equal. The starting point is some humility: realizing you are not the ideal teacher for your child in terms of full academic achievement. You might be adequate, at best, for merely sufficient academic achievement. Exposure to a variety of educated, skilled, experienced professional teachers and numerous academic opportunities will always be better.

I believe the animosity present in this thread is because, deep down, some of you actually realize the above two bold points are true, but you do not like to acknowledge that, because you want to do what you want to do, not what is best for your minor children. You do not want to admit to yourself that you regard your own interests above those of your child, and you just want to justify your own choices. Of course, parenting choices are a touchy subject.

Ultimately, this is a matter of values. Marriage means sacrifice. Having minor children means sacrifice. That is a responsible, adult choice: you sacrifice yourself and your wants for the well-being of another. Some of you refuse this responsible, adult choice. The result is bad marriages and screwed-up, resentful, or limited offspring.

The article is an extreme example. Nevertheless, it raises an important general point about taking children cruising - it is not the best choice for the full development of the child.

I just hope my posts causes some considering this action to reconsider whether it is in the child's best interests.

Seems to me like he characterized your comments accurately. But hey, you're on a roll.


1. Taking a minor child world cruising with you necessarily imposes limitations not found on land with occasional sailing. This is indisputable.
False. This is your imagination talking While taking a child cruising does remove certain aspects from the child's like (ie. what you call "limitations") - you refuse to account for the other side of the equation, the positive benefits of cruising. For you, it's all negative but reality is that the positives outweigh the negatives, in my view and the view of most every other member on this board.


You can travel internationally and/or sail on weekends or family vacations and expose your child to the same experiences of cruising without the limitations.

This is also untrue. How can a weekend vacation to a nearby cruising ground compare with 5 years sailing the world, visiting 2 dozen or more countries, meeting people in those lands and learning about them. Just flat out false. How do you make such assertions so confidently and so wrongly?


I believe the animosity present in this thread is because, deep down, some of you actually realize the above two bold points are true, but you do not like to acknowledge that,

Believe what you like, you've been doing a great job of that so far, without even considering the evidence against your position. Why stop now, you're totally convincing so many people here...

Nevertheless, it raises an important general point about taking children cruising - it is not the best choice for the full development of the child.

And yet another false statement presented without ANY evidence at all. I get you are lawyer, so winning arguments is what you were trained for, doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, you just keep powering forward trying to win the argument.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

O.K. Here is a peer-reviewed study of an analogous subject matter for you: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3461...19%20pandemic.

Title: Social isolation and its impact on child and adolescent development: a systematic review

Conclusions: The review shows a strong association between social isolation and anxiety and depression in children and adolescents. Social isolation leads to higher levels of cortisol and worse cognitive development. Therefore, the mental and physical health of children and adolescents need a careful follow up by health professionals during and after the COVID-19 pandemic.


The pandemic caused children to be isolated with their parents in their residence, with fewer outlets than normal, very similar to life confined aboard a small boat for extended periods of time.

This seems like common sense to me. Either you get it or you don't.

I did research your postings, because your replies to this thread came out of nowhere and seemed particularly adverse and accusatory. I was somewhat shocked to read your extreme views when you have zero or very little experience with actually living aboard a small boat. It is not a gotcha, but, given your hostility, family life aboard a small cruising boat seems a colossal mistake for all involved.

No worries. In my line of work, I get called every name in the book on a regular basis by angry, emotional people, so I have developed a thick hide.

That's the equivalent of saying that living in a subdivision is bad for kids because it's isolating (I guess if you keep them locked in the basement 24/7).

You clearly have no clue about cruising families if you think they are locked up in their cabins for weeks on end. A little pot calling the kettle black going on here.

[Jebtrois]

Shocker...Boomer middle class white guy from Richmond, VA suburb believes that his cloistered life is the only way YOU should raise YOUR children. The blue pill is very powerful folks.
JEB

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

If you read my posts carefully, they were actually much more simpler points that are misconstrued:

1. Taking a minor child world cruising with you necessarily imposes limitations not found on land with occasional sailing. This is indisputable.

...........

2. These limitations are not in the best interests of the child. They are a choice of the parent imposed on the minor child.

........

Or to put it another way.

1. Forcing a child to live in suburbia with you necessarily imposes limitations not found cruising. This is indisputable.

2. These limitations are not in the best interests of the child. They are a choice of the parent imposed on the minor child.

Guess what, parents make choices for kids. You have proven nothing regarding cruising being bad for children. This story is completely about bad parents and they would still be bad if they acted in similar ways living in suburbia.

[Fore and Aft]

SailorSailor I think the truest thing you have said in that whole post is parenting is a touchy subject. One thing you are 100% correct about is lots of us put ourselves before our children. In my opinion you have to, who wants an entitled child? The wife and I work around our children's needs but at the end of the day we need to still make a living and have our own life.
I keep thinking the word sacrifice is too strong a word when you are talking about parenting. We have never sacrificed anything; we might bend and flex ourselves, but at the end of the day nothing has been lost.
SailorSailor I hope you are not taking this as personal attack on your lifestyle, lots of sailors I have met and know don't fit into any conventual mold. That doesn't mean they are bad parents that turn out bad kids.
Anyway back to sailing, I found this old article about girls sailing on my Facebook page last week.
Cheers
https://community.thriveglobal.com/w...earns-to-sail/

[davil]

Once upon a time was a very sad child who was very unhappy with her parents.

She grew up to be a successful professional, but her best friend told her to write a book about her life.

When the book was published, a citizen of a very small kingdom called (Cruiser's Forum)) came across this book and commented with her fellow companions.

This kingdom is inhabited by very independent people who share a common goal of sailing the oceans of the world and enjoy their simple life

Some of them brought in their children and most of them were happy on their simple ways.

A few families had difficulties, and shared their experiences with other little kingdom citizens.

The power of belonging to this small community will nurture them, and solutions were based on individual needs.

One day, a newcomer to the little community announced how displeased he was because the way they raise their families, and proclaimed what was the right way to do it.

He announced the high priests (judges in family courts) have outlined the “right ways” and anybody deviated could be found in contempt of their guidelines.

The citizens of the little kingdom were stunned, they have gone long ways to escape conformism, they thrived in freedom from government's intrusion in their lives and promoted good will across different cultures and lands.

They did not know they were bad people, bad parents, oh how that hurt them!.

The newcomer was not listening and persisted on how much damage they were causing their families by not following the court guidelines and persisted his being the only way of raising a family.

Because the citizens of the little kingdom were used only to talk about their boats and voyages, they did not how to react.

Eventually they started to talk to each other and found most of them did not agree with this person and tried to be nice and polite, but he was not having it.

Some people started to react badly, names calling, and the King became concerned.

Then every time the citizens settled down, the newcomer will show up and stir the pot again.

And so the story goes.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

. . . The pandemic caused children to be isolated with their parents in their residence, with fewer outlets than normal, very similar to life confined aboard a small boat for extended periods of time.. .

If you think that cruising together as a family is similar to being locked in your home during the pandemic -- then that explains everything.


I suppose you could conceive of some dysfunctional parents locking their children belowdecks and keeping them from all social contact or experience of the world moving past them -- but that has nothing whatsoever to do with family cruising that I've ever seen or even heard about.


Have you ever been on a sailboat? Pardon me if that was already asked and answered, but it's hard to imagine a person who has ever done it, thinking like this.


Cruising is an ACTIVE sport, and a social one. Constant motion, exploring new places, handling the boat, being with the sea, constantly learning new skills, meeting new people.


I can speak from experience, actually -- in my own childhood it was not just sailing with my family, but all kinds of traveling together with my family, which were the key and best and most enriching experiences. Best of all probably was spending a whole summer -- 3 months -- driving all over Europe in a tiny Commer camper van -- 6 of us. Smaller than any cruising boat I've ever been on. It was not very comfortable, but none of us cared -- it was a FABULOUS experience for all of us, something new and amazing every single day, meeting new people every day, seeing new places, hearing different languages, exploring new cities.


I can't think of anything better for children than going on a summer's or a year's or even a couple years of cruising together. Peer reviewed studies show mental health and successful development of children strongly correlated to how much interaction children have with their parents, how much time they spend doing things together.



The pandemic studies showing the hideous damage to children from lockdowns are also consistent with this -- by far the most damage was suffered by lower income families where the parents were working or struggling with little time for their kids. Upper income parents who were able to work from home and put effort into home schooling did relatively fine, although loss of outside social contact was harmful.



None of this says anything whatsoever about cruising.

[davil]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

2 kids approached our boat, can see their smiles, curiosity.

Lovely

They moved to the next anchored boat, they have 2 children, invited them onboard, we observed their interaction, they spoke different languages, but it was joyful to watch them.

Will guess the 2 cruising children are now better citizens of the world.

Taken near Providence Island, San Blas 1998 aboar my Tartan 34 Dejavu