Is the gimbled propane oven obsolete?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Nobody sells a gimbaled induction stove, but Force 10 does make a gimbaled electric (resistance coil) stove / oven combo. So as long as you've got a way to power it you could use that underway. Or you could take an old, beat up gimbaled gas stove and re-use the housing and gimbals with a new cooktop, etc. to build a gimbaled whatever kind of stove you want.

GN Espace have just introduced a new 45cm wide stove. This wasn't available when we started down the electric route and the price frightening, but beautifully made and properly insulated so heat isn't wasted:

https://gn-espace.com/product/levant...uction-cooker/

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Well, that answers that! A similar (actually smaller) boat on a more northern latitude, that is essentially above water with 100% electric cooking. I trust Pete and his report -- but I've still got a touch of disbelief in the back of my mind... LOL. Seriously, his report is credibly presented and certainly first hand.

Thank you. There was certainly lots of mission creep going down the electric route. The initial plan was just to supplement the gas with electric kettle and toaster etc. However, also concerned over the original 33 year old cooker with a rusty grill dropping rust bits didn't make good toast. Poor oven, hot at the back and cold at the front. Finally the only thing keeping the gas in were those brass valves and little o rings, now quite old and probably worn. Something had to be done.

A supply problem in the UK from the No 1 supplier Calor, who pulled the smaller 3.9kg and 4.5kg cylinders without realising yachts, caravans and RVs are built to house a particular size, just exasperated the situation.

We did flirt with a mix of gas and electric cooking using induction hob, kettle, toaster and Remoska etc from 300w of solar. A gas hob/grill providing a just in case option if needed. This was very successful and I suspect the route most folk will take. Certainly a very good option to reduce the reliance on gas and for a long offshore passage, provide redundancy and conserve a limited gas supply.

My difficulty was mounting a gimballed induction hob whilst retaining the gimballed gas hob. I was also concerned what happens if you put the induction hob on top of the gas hob. Could the induction unknowingly heat up the steel parts of the gas burners? Also how to arrange pan holders and the gimbal "swing" point? In the end Amazon solved the problem when they reduced the price of the Vango Sizzle Double hob by 25% to £98, making it half the price of a similar gas hob. Following a solar upgrade to 590w plus occasional 110w portable folding panel we thought we could go full electric with a gimballed hob for use at sea.

Great results so far this year. However, at 50'N, solar during the winter won't cut it. Equally when we do sail in the winter we tend to go into harbours or marinas with cheap winter rates. Therefore, we are going to plug in anyway for heating and running the dehumidifier etc. We could do a couple of days at anchor if we wanted without solar, just on the batteries and diesel heating.

Average depth of discharge of the 220Ah LFP batteries was about 50% each dawn. I tried to record this, but the shunt doesn't include the power to and from the lead acid in the hybrid bank, only LFP and I can't adjust the Peukert factor on the older battery monitor so the figures progressively become more inaccurate.

Can't remember when we last used the gas before removing it. Wasn't this year and probably not last year either.

Was it more expensive? Yes lets not kid ourselves. In comparison a new gas cooker starts at £600. LFP batteries, larger solar panels, DC>DC charger and MPPTs can add up. Not forgetting the very nice s/s pans that turned out to have a heavy copper plate in the base so didn't work and had to be replaced. Perhaps £2000 including a spare PSW 1600w inverter, just in case.

Would we do it again? in a flash, well hopefully not literally

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Pete7

GN Espace have just introduced a new 45cm wide stove. This wasn't available when we started down the electric route and the price frightening, but beautifully made and properly insulated so heat isn't wasted:

https://gn-espace.com/product/levant...uction-cooker/

You almost had me there! I thought they had introduced a new compact LPG stove

Having only in the last few weeks bought myself a Phillips Air Fryer for use down on the campo I am now hooked. One for the boat is now on my wish list.
Even then I would keep the LPG cooktop... gimballed but not left swinging ... we rarely if ever use the oven when out and about on the lumpy bits.

I have yet to identify the power requirements for an airfryer - essentially just a fan forced oven on steroids - when 'off the grid' but we all spend most of our time in marinas , yes?

[dlj]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I have yet to identify the power requirements for an airfryer - essentially just a fan forced oven on steroids - when 'off the grid' but we all spend most of our time in marinas , yes?

Not in my case. Haven't been hooked up in a marina in at least 6 months. Likely won't in the next 6 months either. I do keep my diesel tanks full.

This thread is very interesting. I've been watching with great interest. The induction cooking option is very interesting.

I've been trying to wrap my head around what folks are using for electric that makes 800 watt solar systems needed. I'm running a 370 watt panel and at anchor it more than produces enough power for my power needs. I am careful with power consumption. I run a frig/freezer 24/7. My inverter and starlink I turn on when using and then turn them off. My lights are mostly LEDs. I run my computer when the inverter is on, charge all my electronic gadgets.

Now on passage, when running my AIS, RADAR, and full instruments, I can only go about 3 or 4 days with only that panel and then need to run my engine. Under sail, I am running a wind vane so no power draw there. But at anchor, I'm producing more than enough power with that panel.

dj

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Pete7

GN Espace have just introduced a new 45cm wide stove. This wasn't available when we started down the electric route and the price frightening, but beautifully made and properly insulated so heat isn't wasted:

https://gn-espace.com/product/levant...uction-cooker/

That's good to know as an option. All of their stuff is 240V though (no 120V options), so it would be a bit more challenging to use in many boats on this side of the pond (some have a 120/240V system, but many are 120V only).

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

You almost had me there! I thought they had introduced a new compact LPG stove

They have, "Low Polluting Gasless" stove

Our basic Ninja Air fryer used 1530w. We still have it on board but rarely use it. The Remoska is the killer widget at 580w that does everything an oven does.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by dlj

I've been trying to wrap my head around what folks are using for electric that makes 800 watt solar systems needed. I'm running a 370 watt panel and at anchor it more than produces enough power for my power needs. I am careful with power consumption. I run a frig/freezer 24/7. My inverter and starlink I turn on when using and then turn them off. My lights are mostly LEDs. I run my computer when the inverter is on, charge all my electronic gadgets.

It sounds like you are a very frugal and careful steward of your power demands. Certainly a notable position.

Compare that to us. We run a fridge and a freezer full-time. We use an electric coffee maker in the morning, and most days we run the toaster a couple of times in the morning. Between motoring and our existing solar, we can be near 100% battery charge by cocktail hour. By 9:00 the next morning, we are usually down about 130Ah. During the day, the energy balance becomes much harder to analyze, as we have solar and 270A of alternator, and we then add in additional demands like 5A for the chartplotter and who knows what for the autopilot. But just looking at the 130Ah overnight, or 1700Wh, and dividing that by the 3-hour rule of thumb for solar output, and the overnight consumption would require over 500 w of solar to replenish. That's over a 16-hour period or 2/3 of a day, so I'm fairly confident that an 800 watt panel should come close to covering our entire day even without alternator input. We'll see how that works out next year!

One boat, one user, one set of experiences. So obviously YMMV!

[dlj]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

It sounds like you are a very frugal and careful steward of your power demands. Certainly a notable position.

Compare that to us. We run a fridge and a freezer full-time. We use an electric coffee maker in the morning, and most days we run the toaster a couple of times in the morning. Between motoring and our existing solar, we can be near 100% battery charge by cocktail hour. By 9:00 the next morning, we are usually down about 130Ah. During the day, the energy balance becomes much harder to analyze, as we have solar and 270A of alternator, and we then add in additional demands like 5A for the chartplotter and who knows what for the autopilot. But just looking at the 130Ah overnight, or 1700Wh, and dividing that by the 3-hour rule of thumb for solar output, and the overnight consumption would require over 500 w of solar to replenish. That's over a 16-hour period or 2/3 of a day, so I'm fairly confident that an 800 watt panel should come close to covering our entire day even without alternator input. We'll see how that works out next year!

One boat, one user, one set of experiences. So obviously YMMV!

I'm also running frig/freezer 24/7 but I bet it's smaller than yours - and mine is quite well insulated. It draws about 5 amps when running and depending upon ambient temperatures turns on 6 to 12 times a day for something like 10 minutes (I've never timed it). So in a 24 hour period it doesn't consume a lot.

Coffee and toast I make with propane, not electric. I use an antique (well, 1950's) drip coffee maker so heat water on stove. Toast I do in my fry pan as I prefer toast made that way.

5 amps for the chart plotter seems a lot to me. My chart plotter is on the same circuit as my wind indicator and depth sounder so I don't know what it consumes actually. I don't run without my AIS so all of those instruments run together and typically also with my marine radio. All of those together tend to run about 8 amps. When I turn on the RADAR I'm running 10 to 11 amps. So cruising I'm in definite deficit.

But at anchor I've only the constant frig/freezer. Of course I'm consuming propane. We ran through pretty much one small tank of propane in about 3 months. I wish I could remember the size tank. It's smaller than the standard BBG tank sold in the US. I'm guessing it's about 2/3's that standard size.

I guess I am pretty frugal using power. I only run the electric autopilot when motoring, usually anyway. And for sure that doesn't matter as I produce almost 200 amps motoring.

I do keep a close eye on consumption. I'll run the engine when needed but I have typically been able to time it for when I'd run it anyway for other reasons.

My inverter and starlink consume as much as my frig/freezer but without the cycling so that is a major draw for me hence my "metered" use...

dj

[sailingunity]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Nobody sells a gimbaled induction stove, but Force 10 does make a gimbaled electric (resistance coil) stove / oven combo. So as long as you've got a way to power it you could use that underway. Or you could take an old, beat up gimbaled gas stove and re-use the housing and gimbals with a new cooktop, etc. to build a gimbaled whatever kind of stove you want.

Actually GN Espace does, it's called the OceanChef 3.

https://gn-espace.com/product/oceanc...uction-cooker/

[s/v Jedi]

I have been working on the design for a new style of galley for live aboard cruising, expedition style. With that I mean completely self reliant, so baking bread, making yogurt, sourdough, storing all required provisions for up to a year etc. All electric because we get unlimited solar power while fossil fuels are limited aboard.

A big question is: do you need the gimbal oven while underway and heeled? We found that we never used it while heeled, which means the gimbal is not needed for the oven at all, just for the cooktop.

We started testing with a large cutting board on top of our Force10 with a portable induction cooktop and now we discovered how nice it is to have a gimbal surface to use for whatever you want. Like a coffeemaker, a rice cooker, a bread machine etc. We also found that we like to prepare meals before departure and freeze them. While on passage, decide what to eat the next day and get that out of the freezer for thawing (into the fridge to recoup energy put into freezing it) and then use the microwave for heating it. So the microwave needs a gimbal!

We also found that a gimbal is of limited use because it’s easy to loose balance when the weight on top is more than the counterweight. You want a way to secure it in many different positions, not just in level position like my Force10. Did you see that TallyHo built that into their galley?! Lots of good ideas from them!

We drink a lot of coffee and I know others don’t even bother with it, but we grind the beans and use a high end coffeemaker. I want a dedicated spot for that, with a gimbal like mount.

So where I am now is that the Force10 needs to be replaced with a DIY unit that houses a small but reliable microwave oven (now Toshiba but still looking for a better option) underneath and a flat work surface on top and supports a lock position every couple degrees or even in every position.

For oven we use a convection grill oven from Breville.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A big question is: do you need the gimbal oven while underway and heeled? We found that we never used it while heeled, which means the gimbal is not needed for the oven at all, just for the cooktop.

So where I am now is that the Force10 needs to be replaced with a DIY unit that houses a small but reliable microwave oven (now Toshiba but still looking for a better option) underneath and a flat work surface on top and supports a lock position every couple degrees or even in every position

I think we use the oven underway, but my culinary skills barely extend to making coffee (using prepared grounds!). I only know that what she serves is hot -- and good. BUT,


The oven serves an important purpose. It puts the counterweight 16" below the pivot point. A DIY solution for a cooktop that can be used underway (and I KNOW she does that!) will still require that separation. Your idea of repurposing that space for a microwave is equally effective. But it can't be turned into fixed mount things (or storage) because you'd lose your gimbal lever arm.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I think we use the oven underway, but my culinary skills barely extend to making coffee (using prepared grounds!). I only know that what she serves is hot -- and good. BUT,

The oven serves an important purpose. It puts the counterweight 16" below the pivot point. A DIY solution for a cooktop that can be used underway (and I KNOW she does that!) will still require that separation. Your idea of repurposing that space for a microwave is equally effective. But it can't be turned into fixed mount things (or storage) because you'd lose your gimbal lever arm.

We found that a gas hob/grill needs different sized gimbals compared to the hob/oven hob. The lower yellow arrow shows the original gimbal for a hob oven and the upper yellow arrow required for just a hob or hob/grill solution.

Wasn't quite plain sailing because the latest gimbals are only plated, not pure stainless steel, so kept the old gimbals off the cooker when we disposed of it. Then bought the longer hangers and with some bench fitting joined them together.

If Jedi is going to mount a microwave underneath, then I found the difference between the hob/oven and the later gas hob/grill was 14kg. A microwave is likely to be a similar weight and perhaps a good start point. When we fitted the induction hob, I tried to match the gas hob weight using 23mm English oak.

Final adjustment for the induction hob was to place 600g underneath towards the front. This tips the hob forwards, so pushing the pans to the back a bit gives easier access to the induction controls and the surface is level. Clear as mud?

[Rohan]

I'm wondering if some people here are just trading one fuel for another. You replace your propane stove for an induction one. Great, no propane!

But then when you can't adequately charge your batteries off wind or solar you run the generator, and burn fuel that way. So you are simply burning another kind of fuel. It's one thing to add up all your solar panels and power needs, but then it's not going to work when you get multiple cloudy days in a row.

BTW, four years I've owned my boat now and not once have I needed a stove that was gimbaled. If I'm sailing heeled or in crashing waves then I'm really not in a mood to cook anything.

[wingssail]

I am pretty comfortable with my Force10 3 burner gimbled gas stove and oven. I've used it for 38 years. I often have all three burners going to cook a meal. I use the gimble while sailing and on passages I cook very much the same as I do in port. I occasionally use the oven, including roasting a Turkey for the holidays. So the capabilities of this stove are appreciated.

I have two bottles, 9lb, and I use these bottles for the stove, BBQ and instant domestic water heater. I have the convenience of a home ashore, I am not camping.

I've rarely had trouble getting my propane bottles refilled, around the world.

I keep my boat simple and try to avoid extra weight and definitely want avoid costs of new equipment, therefore the weight and expense of massive solar is unattractive to me. And why do i need it? My current installation works perfectly.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Rohan

I'm wondering if some people here are just trading one fuel for another. You replace your propane stove for an induction one. Great, no propane!

But then when you can't adequately charge your batteries off wind or solar you run the generator, and burn fuel that way. So you are simply burning another kind of fuel. It's one thing to add up all your solar panels and power needs, but then it's not going to work when you get multiple cloudy days in a row.

BTW, four years I've owned my boat now and not once have I needed a stove that was gimbaled. If I'm sailing heeled or in crashing waves then I'm really not in a mood to cook anything.

Whatever way you produce heat - with the exception of wind and solar - you are burning fuel. Even plugged into electricity in a marina the odds are that fuel is being burnt somewhere.
The big diff between using propane/lpg and diesel is the safety factor. Its also easier to source diesel than propane/lpg in many places unless you are willing to change out your existing bottles for local ones.
That said I don't plan on getting rid of my propane/lpg installation.
And I plan to buy an airfryer for use in port.