What's the best way to sail downwind without a pole?

[ohthetrees]

For us….
Light air: asymmetric spinnaker
Medium air: prevented main
Heavy air: jib only

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

For us….
Light air: asymmetric spinnaker
Medium air: prevented main
Heavy air: jib only

The OP has no spinnaker (Or pole)

We always prevent the mainsail while sailing downwind, but sailing with main only is unusual for us (see below).

We never sail with jib alone.

Downwind in heavy weather we will sail with reefed main and small jib, either on a pole or not. ONLY when the wind increases do we strike the jib, and then we'll sail under reefed main alone. Control is not a problem since we have a very powerful spade rudder.

At no time do we drop the main altogether and use only a jib; just not worth the trouble to get the main down with the wind at our back and there is NO NEED.

Photo: Sailing North from Sydney Australia in 2002. See log book page, wind 30-40kts Log Book Pages: Sydney To Yamba

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Jim, I agree. Look at my avatar. But what you missed is that OP has no pole of any kind.

I do understand that the OP is poleless (something to be corrected ASAP IMO).

I was pontificating in the general sense, I guess, and in that last post I was responding to the chap who found DDW wing and wing to be terribly stressful.

I think some of the difference in opinions expressed here are due to some folks having IOR era boats with very big headsails and small mains, and some folks with more modern rigs, even fractional (like ours) with big mains* and smaller headsails. Changes ones outlook a lot, that!

Jim

* This affects both the distribution of sail area and the mast location. In fractional rigs the mast is farther forward in most cases, and when sailing main alone, this changes the degree of weather helm developed. Perhaps this is why our boats do so well on the main.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The OP has no spinnaker (Or pole)

We always prevent the mainsail while sailing downwind, but sailing with main only is unusual for us (see below).

We never sail with jib alone.

Downwind in heavy weather we will sail with reefed main and small jib, either on a pole or not. ONLY when the wind increases do we strike the jib, and then we'll sail under reefed main alone. Control is not a problem since we have a very powerful spade rudder.

At no time do we drop the main altogether and use only a jib; just not worth the trouble to get the main down with the wind at our back and there is NO NEED.

Photo: Sailing North from Sydney Australia in 2002. See log book page, wind 30-40kts Log Book Pages: Sydney To Yamba

Very interesting, but I see a heading of 030 with the (high) wind bearing at 260. I think the OP was asking about downwind sailing. If some folks here are sailing downwind (DDW) in high wind using a jib or Genoa w/o a pole for hours at a time, I’d love to learn how to do it better than I’ve been trying to do it, which I explained above (#23). That seems to be the OP’s question.

[momo034]

Thanks all for the replies, definitely learned a few tricks here! Seems there are quite a few options, as one said...will play around with them all and find what seems to work.

[JPA Cate]

Don't mess around with a collapsible whisker pole. The tend to fail under stress. You can buy the bits and create your own spinnaker pole, or buy one, complete. You will also want to install some track for it to run up and down the mast, and you can consider mounting it parallel to the mast, permanently, at which point (although there is more windage an weight aloft that way), setting it is a piece of cake.

Ann

[Kd9truck]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The autopilots are overpowered due to the mainsail if there is too much mainsail up for the conditions.

The mainsail can cause the boat to try to head (back) up into the wind.

With jib only and not even all the way out with gusts in the high 20 knot range it was easy for the autopilot to handle it.

You can hear the autopilot at the start of the video bring the boat back in line. (2nd video)

As demonstrated in the videos below.

You do not know my experiences, your commenting on my opinion and experience , that is nothing you can utube, your comments and advice about the OPs post are welcome.

[1Jazzsailor1]

Genoa only....rig a preventer to control accidental backing. I also found a snatch block rigged mid ships for the working sheet very helpful....

[Big Moe]

Wing on Wing but watch the main sail doesn’t gibe. It’s nice to install a brake. Look one up on the West Marine site. Boom Brake

[Hamish_ct]

Run your genoa sheets to a block at the stern then up to a winch. Taking the genoa sheets off the Jib track and moving them to the back of the boat opens up the gap. Will be much easier to control, and you will see better performance.

[Manlio Laschena]

I have always used only genoa, as everyone says, but arming an additional sheet that pulls vertically down the sheet point

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Auklet

Very interesting, but I see a heading of 030 with the (high) wind bearing at 260. I think the OP was asking about downwind sailing. If some folks here are sailing downwind (DDW) in high wind using a jib or Genoa w/o a pole for hours at a time, I’d love to learn how to do it better than I’ve been trying to do it, which I explained above (#23). That seems to be the OP’s question.

You're right regarding the True Wind Angles we recorded in the example I gave; it wasn't DDW, it was more like 130deg. But the wind was 30-40 knots and there were pretty big waves coming from the direction of the wind. We found that we couldn't safely sail DDW in the gusts. I think that in 20 knots of wind a deeper angle would be much easier than what we were dealing with.

I honestly think that sailing DDW is almost never the most effective way to get to a DDW destination. Various sheeting techniques for a genoa-only set up can work but they may be a headache when it comes time to make an adjustment or heading change. I would avoid that, others may like it. Broad reaching angles are less stressful as well as being faster (VMG). This is the reason I didn't give advice to the OP on how to do it.

As for trying to sail DDW in a narrow channel in high winds I would not consider that, in general, to be good seamanship unless you are in full control and able to quickly react to shifts, puffs, or traffic and have good rudder authority.

[Leatherman]

I regularly sail downwind in my Westerly reading both pages; not difficult if you have a 135% genoa. But keep a regular eye on the masthead wind indicator, keeping it pointing between the two fingers.

[Aeronaught]

If I had that situation, I'd get the wind over the quarter and make up the greater distance with the additional speed, not to speak of a much more comfortable point of sail. Having lived on a Marco Polo for over 10 years, I found going straight downwind only a little less satisfactory than beating to weather....and everyone knows, a 'gentleman' never beats to weather.

[Networker]

Originally Posted by momo034

Thanks all for the replies, definitely learned a few tricks here! Seems there are quite a few options, as one said...will play around with them all and find what seems to work.

Agreed, was in 6 foot seas, 20-25kts direct downwind and the tips I got to do headsail only was perfect timing. Just put out a tiny bit of the headsail and cruised into the safety of a harbor yesterday before a storm hit; didn’t have to worry about the flopping of the headsail or the preventer for the main.