Heading upwind to furl

[catsketcher]

I was reading a cruising blog the other day and the writers told of being hit with a squall. They were trying to reef the genoa and they wrestled and winched it in whilst keeping on heading upwind. It split the sail and they needed repairs. I wondered - why do people do this?

I was on a friend's Bavaria and she wanted to head up to furl the genny too. I suggested than we bear away and pop it almost behind the main and furl it that way. She had never done that before and had always flagged the poor genny to furl it. She was amazed that I could pull the furler without a winch and it still rolled nicely.

I see this done a fair bit and can't think of one good reason why people furl their furling genoa's into the wind. I have seen people flogging gennys in the Whitsundays in the trades and winching flat out whereas we bear away, get some speed up and pull the furler in by hand, without a winch. I have never winched the genny in in 22 years of owning our 38ft cat.

The physics is pretty stark. If it is blowing 18 knots my cat can do 8 knots to windward - say apparent at 25 knots. The energy of the wind is proportional to the velocity squared so we have KE = k (constant) x 25^2 = k x 625 non SI units. If I try to furl to windward then I have to counter this energy. If I bear away at 8 knots then I get about 11 knots of apparent. KE = K x 11^2 = k x 121 units of energy. I can also shelter the genny behind the main but I have about one fifth the effort required to furl the genny by bearing away for less than half a minute.

I understand in the days before furlers we liked to have the genny fall inside the lifelines but with furlers it seems silly not to bear away for a few seconds. If a sail is in front of the mast I furl or drop it downwind going as fast as I can, the main is dropped heading into the breeze. I must look a bit strange at the end of a sail, I do a quick bear away, furl the genny, then a quick head up (with no motor on) and as she gets close to head to wind the main gets dropped and then we stop. But this wiggle makes it all happen nice and easy.

So why do experienced people furl gennys sailing to windward when it takes far less time, far far less effort and saves huge wear on the boat to do a quick bear away furl? I am perplexed.

Cheers

Phil

[rslifkin]

I've seen a few people sail into the river locally when the wind is right. Genoa only, straight downwind. Right before they're ready to turn into the marina, put some extra slack in the sheet and furl it. So it's not unheard of. But I think many people furl the jib while close hauled because then it's easy to just point up a little more to drop the main.



Personally, when sailing other people's boats, I often do use a winch to furl the genoa. In many cases I can pull the line by hand, but I've found that it'll often furl more neatly (especially if I'm holding the sheet in the other hand) with the winch just because it's easier to furl steadily at a constant speed by slowly cranking a winch on high speed (vs pulling by hand, where it's hard to be steady unless you can use both hands).

[Rucksta]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

(especially if I'm holding the sheet in the other hand) with the winch just because it's easier to furl steadily at a constant speed by slowly cranking a winch on high speed (vs pulling by hand, where it's hard to be steady unless you can use both hands).

Try one turn of the sheet round the winch and maintain tension with your foot providing adjustable friction against the cockpit sole.
This leaves both hands free for furling at a steady pace resulting in a neat tight wrap.

[Benz]

If you're sailing with genny alone, there's no main to blanket it when you turn downwind. The boat I'm cruising now has roller furlers, and it the main's not up, the genny flogs while being furled no matter what we do. I try to always have some mainsail.
But seriously, here's another compelling reason to never have roller furlers on a boat. With a downhauler you can get a hanked-on sail down no matter what the wind is doing, and there's no danger of having a sail stuck halfway out. The very last time I used a furler, just a few days ago, I had to go forward to fix an override in the drum. Luckily it wasn't blowing hard.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Benz

If you're sailing with genny alone, there's no main to blanket it when you turn downwind. The boat I'm cruising now has roller furlers, and it the main's not up, the genny flogs while being furled no matter what we do. I try to always have some mainsail.
But seriously, here's another compelling reason to never have roller furlers on a boat. With a downhauler you can get a hanked-on sail down no matter what the wind is doing, and there's no danger of having a sail stuck halfway out. The very last time I used a furler, just a few days ago, I had to go forward to fix an override in the drum. Luckily it wasn't blowing hard.

That's where it's important to make sure any gear like roller furlers is good quality gear, set up well, and works reliably without fussing. And if it ever does get a little fussy, figure out why and fix it, don't just ignore it (otherwise it'll become a problem in less than good conditions). Plus, nothing stops you from just releasing the halyard and pulling the sail down on the deck in a worst case scenario, provided it's not stuck partially furled.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

...nothing stops you from just releasing the halyard and pulling the sail down on the deck in a worst case scenario, provided it's not stuck partially furled.

What I notice when people are hoisting or dropping roller furled sails is how difficult it appears.

We have no roller furling, just a headfoil, and we raise and lower headsails all the time. It is quick and easy. But I see people, usually at the dock, straining and struggling to get a headsail up or down. Going up they are often slowly cranking away with a small winch on the mast.

I wonder why it is so difficult? That would make it slow and possibly dangerous to do it at sea instead of rolling it up.

If I had roller furling I would lubricate the luff tape and clean the track and practice putting the sail up and down often to keep it easy to do so I always had that as an option. This would also permit me to change sails.

[Lodesman]

I must be doing it wrong.

I point up to furl the genny and don't have a problem with flogging. Never needed to winch the furling line, either.

It helps to apply a little back tension with the sheets.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by wingssail

What I notice when people are hoisting or dropping roller furled sails is how difficult it appears.

We have no roller furling, just a headfoil, and we raise and lower headsails all the time. It is quick and easy. But I see people, usually at the dock, straining and struggling to get a headsail up or down. Going up they are often slowly cranking away with a small winch on the mast.

I wonder why it is so difficult? That would make it slow and possibly dangerous to do it at sea instead of rolling it up.

If I had roller furling I would lubricate the luff tape and clean the track and practice putting the sail up and down often to keep it easy to do so I always had that as an option. This would also permit me to change sails.

Likely a combination of questionably maintained equipment and people that put a sail up or down once a year at most, so they're not any bit well practiced for it. But at the same time, if the furler is a good quality unit of adequate size and in good condition, it should absolutely be faster to furl the sail than anything else, even in bad conditions.

[Joli]

We always fall off to furl headsails, maybe 130~150 degree. Sails are too expensive to shake for no reason.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by wingssail

What I notice when people are hoisting or dropping roller furled sails is how difficult it appears.

We have no roller furling, just a headfoil, and we raise and lower headsails all the time. It is quick and easy. But I see people, usually at the dock, straining and struggling to get a headsail up or down. Going up they are often slowly cranking away with a small winch on the mast.

I wonder why it is so difficult? That would make it slow and possibly dangerous to do it at sea instead of rolling it up.

If I had roller furling I would lubricate the luff tape and clean the track and practice putting the sail up and down often to keep it easy to do so I always had that as an option. This would also permit me to change sails.

I furl when I sail with the family trading performance for comfort (the reduced stress for the family esp. when it gets a bit windy = increased comfort).

The furled genoa has vertical battens which is the main reason I need a calm day in the marina to slowly hoist that sail, inserting battens as it goes up. The other genoas with their horizontal battens leave the bag, go up and down back into the bag no problem at speed.

So for me it's batten orientation. But I think other users of furling genoas may not have the repeated practice opportunities to do it at a clip.

[gonesail]

heading downwind in a big blow might cause a breach or at the very least a massive effort .. better to quickly get it in going upwind? but with big headsails always a challenge which is why I like cutter rigs.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

I furl when I sail with the family trading performance for comfort (the reduced stress for the family esp. when it gets a bit windy = increased comfort).

The furled genoa has vertical battens which is the main reason I need a calm day in the marina to slowly hoist that sail, inserting battens as it goes up. The other genoas with their horizontal battens leave the bag, go up and down back into the bag no problem at speed.

So for me it's batten orientation. But I think other users of furling genoas may not have the repeated practice opportunities to do it at a clip.

Horizontal battens in a furling Genoa? That's an odd idea that I've not seen in real life... how do they roll up?

Please explain.

Jim

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

…



So why do experienced people furl gennys sailing to windward when it takes far less time, far far less effort and saves huge wear on the boat to do a quick bear away furl? I am perplexed.



Cheers



Phil

It is not always possible or safe to turn downwind to blanket the headsail prior to furling or dropping it. A squall could be one of those times, assuming the boat was relatively close to the wind and the correct response was to luff up.

But otherwise, you have nailed it - a quick bear away, blanket then furl, then head back up to deal with the main. This also works for gennakers and asymmetrics. We use between 100 and 200m to leeward, depending on the size of the sail we’re furling. The lack of flogging makes up for it.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Horizontal battens in a furling Genoa? That's an odd idea that I've not seen in real life... how do they roll up?

Please explain.

Jim

I think I should have said:

"The furled genoa has vertical battens which is the main reason I need a calm day in the marina to slowly hoist that sail, inserting battens as it goes up. My other non-furling, regular genoas with their horizontal battens leave the bag, go up and down back into the bag no problem at speed."

I wanted to add, yes I do think furling after bearing away is so much easier on the muscles and equipment and in fact lowering a regular headsail while under-crewed or in fact singlehanding in a blow is also best done on a downwind course, running. By taking the halyard forward and guiding the leech on to the deck, the luff finds its own space on the deck.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

I think I should have said:

"The furled genoa has vertical battens which is the main reason I need a calm day in the marina to slowly hoist that sail, inserting battens as it goes up. My other non-furling, regular genoas with their horizontal battens leave the bag, go up and down back into the bag no problem at speed."

I wanted to add, yes I do think furling after bearing away is so much easier on the muscles and equipment and in fact lowering a regular headsail while under-crewed or in fact singlehanding in a blow is also best done on a downwind course, running. By taking the halyard forward and guiding the leech on to the deck, the luff finds its own space on the deck.

I must be behind the times, my genoa has no battens, come to think of it I don't recall ever seeing a genoa, furling or otherwise that is so equipped. Perhaps I should have my vision checked.