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Old 11-08-2022, 13:07   #61
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
One advantage of a cutter rig is that all this is very easy .
Well noelex, the cutter usually makes tacking more difficult and a cutter's stay sail is often a small sail useful by itself only in heavy conditions.

I don't know the wind strengths you use to decide the big headsail is too much. for me it is about 18 knots true. What do you sail with once you go past that point, whatever it is? Can you sail effectively to windward with a staysail and a mainsail in those conditions? Most boats will be underpowered and no longer close winded.
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Old 11-08-2022, 13:22   #62
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

For some boats a Solent rig would also be a viable solution. You sacrifice a little to the extra windage if both sails are on furlers, but it becomes a pretty quick "furl, unfurl" to swap between a big and smaller headsail if everything is rigged for it. And unlike a physical sail change, you get the safety factor of being able to stay in the cockpit.

But of course, it's all a question of whether your usage will mind the slight performance penalty.
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Old 11-08-2022, 14:10   #63
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Well noelex, the cutter usually makes tacking more difficult
This is true. Tacking can require partial rolling up of the yankee in very light wind, but in these conditions partial furling is easily done. The staysail will self tack with little effort.

With a true cutter (rather than a sloop with an inner forestay) in moderate wind the yankee will pass through the slot between the staysail without an issue.

In heavy wind the staysail is used which is almost self tacking, so in these conditions (when easy sail handling is most needed) it is simpler than a sloop.

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Can you sail effectively to windward with a staysail and a mainsail in those conditions?
Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Most boats will be underpowered and no longer close winded.
Why would you switch to only the staysail when it going to make the boat underpowered?

The staysail is sheeted closer to the centreline, it is cut flatter than a genoa, especially a partially furled genoa, and the centre of effort is lower and closer to the centre of lateral resistance. In strong conditions at least compared to sloops these attributes make the yacht more, not less close winded. In very light wind conditions the opposite is true and there is a slight loss of pointing ability compared to a sloop with an overlapping genoa.

As you can see, I am a fan of the cutter rig for offshore sailing, but my point that was relevant to the thread title is that handling and furling the headsails is easier, especially in strong wind. The foresail area is divided into two. The yankee is smaller than the equivalent genoa on a sloop and the option of blanketing the yankee behind the staysail is a technique not available to sloops.
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Old 11-08-2022, 14:19   #64
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
One thing to note is that the OP has a light and quick cat. When he bears off in a gust, his boat speed increment is considerably larger than it is for many of us with slower boats, and hence his reduction in apparent wind strength is greater than we might experience.

May make a difference in attitude about furling protocol!

Jim
I think Jim, that that is a big part of it. I also have a wishbone that allows me to sheet in and out really easily. Cats don't broach easily, if at all, and so the quick bear away in a breeze is great for us. Bear away, furl in 5-10 seconds and back up again - look away for a little while and you will miss it.

I also respect others opinions and after reading can see good reasons for not bearing away. Although I have seen people pointing quite close to the beeze and letting the sail fully flog whilst they winch the genny in. I still cringe at that but I can understand better the idea of the sequential ease and furl - I do something similar myself in lighter winds and in certain boats this could be a winner. Still the squall story intrigues me - if struggling with a flogging genny, what is the best strategy? For me it is to bear away, but on a heavy mono with a pretty low hull speed and fine pinched in stern? - I would like to try it out.

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Old 11-08-2022, 14:22   #65
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

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Anything >15Knts we bearaway and depower blanket with main. because genoa wont furl upwind.
Way too much strain on furling gear up wind too. Funky old Furlex mark II with all new bearings etc.
Had an all day return trip 18-22knts app beam reach a few weeks back , then got nailed by forty knot squall with no reefs & #2. Flattened, then Rounded up severely. Eased main to bear away bit by bit until we could get the wind behind. furled, motor on, head back up to drop main. Nearly home anyway.
Pretty intense, but enjoyable none the less. We work with what we've got as I guess do most.

Two up. Young fella thought all his christmas's had come at once. Excellent help for a non sailor.
I love the Stewart 34s. Great boats that look like they should be a cruiser but can hammer around the course. I sailed on one a few times in Sydney back in the late 80s.
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Old 13-08-2022, 04:32   #66
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pirate Re: Heading upwind to furl

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Originally Posted by SV_Sweet_Ruca View Post

Nothing against you or others with high post counts, there are a lot of well-intentioned salty dogs out there with lots of good information to pass on.

There are also a lot of dated practices (lead acid batteries and CQR ancors) and thought processes (bluewater boats need full keels) that can use an update, so a lot of bad information gets relayed to beginners, and this "intimidation factor" hurts our wonderful sport. Wouldn't you agree?
There are also a lot of folk who cannot afford the latest hi tech battery and are quite happy with their Bruce (CQR) and really don't give a toss what their keel is as long as they are out on the water with a big happy grin.
You may motor past us in our 6metre boat becalmed in the middle of the Biscay and all be on one side of the boat snapping the wierdo on your iPhone's sneering as you pass but.. I'll sail into the same port as you further down the line sooner or later.
The OP asked a question, it has been answered by folk who use various techniques, leave it at that.
You wanna reverse your heading to furl your jib.. all good..
You go your way n I'll go mine..
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Old 15-08-2022, 07:25   #67
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

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Originally Posted by SV_Sweet_Ruca View Post
...
If your "carbon laminate jib" is still in "raceable" condition after 25,000 actual sailing miles, I want to know your sailmaker as I will be calling him with my credit card in hand. Though, I doubt though we have the same definition of "raceable."...

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
I think Dockhead might be slightly exaggerating the number of miles he has on that jib, (maybe not), but I think it is a carbon laminated radial cut sail less than 100 % heavily built, and it is not tacked across the lifelines and the front of the mast 20 times every Wednesday.

I accept his claim that it is still in excellent condition.

Yes, it's a slight exaggeration. I have put 25,000 miles on the boat since I had the sails made in 2015, but from that should be deducted miles motoring and miles when we were using the other jib (120% yankee made from same material, used less than 10% of the time).


They are heavy built radial cut cruising sails with Dyneema taffeta on both sides, and yes, they are not tacked 20 times every Wednesday -- sometimes go days at a time on one tack.



The blade jib is still in excellent shape and I'm sure I'll get another 10,000 miles out of it if not more. We did very well with it in our last race, a 900 mile ocean race in which we came in first among all the cruising boats, out of field of more than 50.



The point is that I don't flog it. And that Boatman's furling method works.


And I'm not identifying my sailmaker, who is popular enough without more free advertising. He makes a lot of the sails used in Cowes Week, and he made the sails for the Discovery 67 I sailed across the Atlantic this year. Good sails are the best money you can spend on a boat, by far, and I'll never buy another woven sail as long as I live, considering the incredible service life these laminates have given me.
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Old 15-08-2022, 11:19   #68
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

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The point is that I don't flog it.
I think we can all agree on that.

Regarding the sails, it is really good to hear a positive review on your sails after 7 years on the boat. Glad to hear they are still in excellent condition.

We have a carbon/technora 2x taffeta membrane furling headsail, which is excellent, and we are contemplating the same for the next mainsail.
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Old 15-08-2022, 11:46   #69
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

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Originally Posted by SV_Sweet_Ruca View Post
...We have a carbon/technora 2x taffeta membrane furling headsail, which is excellent, and we are contemplating the same for the next mainsail.
That would be a good choice. Our carbon/carbon 2t membrane main is doing very well after 4 years of 25+ races per year.

The carbon/carbon 1t membrane 150% genoa, same age, is showing wear but still very good shape. 2t, while heavier, would have been more rugged. Tacking this sail is hell on it.

We don't furl these sails and we don't use these sails while cruising, we use Dacron cross cut. We get about 10 years of useful life at about 1/5 the price of the carbon sails.
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Old 15-08-2022, 12:21   #70
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Well noelex, the cutter usually makes tacking more difficult and a cutter's stay sail is often a small sail useful by itself only in heavy conditions.

I don't know the wind strengths you use to decide the big headsail is too much. for me it is about 18 knots true. What do you sail with once you go past that point, whatever it is? Can you sail effectively to windward with a staysail and a mainsail in those conditions? Most boats will be underpowered and no longer close winded.
I don't know what Noelex sails but can offer the following.

We'll typically sail with a #3 and full main into the low 30's. Two years ago we sailed upwind (30 AWA) for five days ( East Coast to the Caribbean) with two or three reefs and the staysail. Wind speeds topped out around 55 and boat speed was between 7 to 9 knots. Slower was better because the sea state had developed some waves without backs.

It is true that having a staysail makes tacking more difficult but for short handed passage making window shade sailing is very convenient. We don't buoy race the boat so we're willing to give up speed when tacking.
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Old 15-08-2022, 13:12   #71
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Re: Heading upwind to furl

I could have missed someone mentioning it in a post as I did scan a some of them. But in all of this debate on different ways to furl a sail, sea state is not mentioned. For a lake/calm condition sailor it is no problem to go head to wind to furl or make other suggested changes in tack/point of sail to make it happen. In a sea state that is not helping the situation other methods of furling are needed. This is were I think some of the opinions are coming from. You aren't "never going to furl with a winch" on a big boat or a boat in higher winds/unforgiving sea state. One or both of these conditions requires the furling line to be on a winch to safely furl. To me it is one of these situations were context has everything to do with the discussion.

Love reading the opinions and methods. Help to keep the wheels of learning turning.

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