Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If you want to evade taxes by avoiding the banking system, digital currencies will be far better than cash, far safer and more discreet. It's hard to get caught with digital currencies. Which is why the modern criminal now more and more is also giving up cash.

As to the boonies -- I've been to some pretty remote places and it's surprising where all you can find ATMs and use debit cards. Almost no place in Europe (except, curiously, Germany), even very remote parts of Europe like the Faroe Islands, do you need to ever have a single bill or coin on you. I do admit, however, to bringing a few thousand euros' worth of DKK to Greenland with me.

Germany is a weird exception where most marinas seem to require payment in cash and only in cash. Go figure.

Digital currencies are too volatile and cash is still king, which is why they are trying to eliminate it. Boonies is not Europe, but Asia, large parts of SE Asia, Africa and parts of the Middle East and probably parts of Central and South America.


Saying that, I did end up in the middle of nowhere in the USA and I kid you not, there were tumbleweeds blowing down the street and the very nice people at the restaurant would not accept my American Express traveler cheques as the local bank would not take them! - They were as good as cash anywhere else at the time.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UFO

Digital currencies are too volatile and cash is still king, which is why they are trying to eliminate it.

Digital currencies are not necessarily volatile. You can get crypto backed by (or pegged to) dollars, euros, or gold if you like. In fact, the European Central Bank itself is working on a digital euro: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digit.../index.en.html

Originally Posted by UFO

Boonies is not Europe, but Asia, large parts of SE Asia, Africa and parts of the Middle East and probably parts of Central and South America.

I don't know about Africa; haven't been there for a while. But I think I saw even less cash being used in SE Asia, than here, especially China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia. I don't think I used cash at all in any of those places.

Originally Posted by UFO

. . .Saying that, I did end up in the middle of nowhere in the USA and I kid you not, there were tumbleweeds blowing down the street and the very nice people at the restaurant would not accept my American Express traveler cheques as the local bank would not take them! - They were as good as cash anywhere else at the time.

Traveller's checks? I haven't seen a traveller's check in 30 years. I don't think most younger people in Europe will even know what that is. Nor have I written a personal check in at least 20 years. That is really old-fashioned.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Digital currencies are not necessarily volatile. You can get crypto backed by (or pegged to) dollars, euros, or gold if you like. In fact, the European Central Bank itself is working on a digital euro: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digit.../index.en.html



I don't know about Africa; haven't been there for a while. But I think I saw even less cash being used in SE Asia, than here, especially China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia. I don't think I used cash at all in any of those places.



Traveller's checks? I haven't seen a traveller's check in 30 years. I don't think most younger people in Europe will even know what that is. Nor have I written a personal check in at least 20 years. That is really old-fashioned.

Yes you have Tether and Gold based digital currencies, but why not just have the real thing?



You obviously do not get outside of the cities much....



Yep showing my age with traveler cheques

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by UFO

I'd like to see you pay out in the boonies with your Google Pay or whatever phone payment system one may have, so in the long run Gold and Silver may still have a place for currency, more so than today.

Out in the Masai Mara in Kenya, locals were all using a phone payment system for pretty much everything. Some of the small towns were pretty boonie-ish.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Creedence

I particularly enjoy the vitriol thrown at folks who simply want to de-dollarize (de-fiat maybe?). The point should not be “why are you doing that?!”, the question to answer is, “why should I participate in your system?”... oh right, governments don’t care for me not participating. I should participate so that I can easily cross borders with a credit card or rely on bank transfers to fund my activities- because “trustworthy”... and robbers.

If you want to de-dollarize for some moralistic stick it to "the man" principal, go for it. But expect it to be a hassle, cost you more money and for the govt to assume you are doing something illegal.

If you are just trying to get by in the world with the least hassle and cost, it's certainly not a good solution.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Existing outside the banking system is NOT tax evasion. Full stop.

No it's not tax evasion but without a good reason, it's so far outside the norm, you can expect countries to assume you are trying to pull something.

We need to separate out the ethical considerations from the practical.

[chowdan]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you want to de-dollarize for some moralistic stick it to "the man" principal, go for it. But expect it to be a hassle, cost you more money and for the govt to assume you are doing something illegal.

If you are just trying to get by in the world with the least hassle and cost, it's certainly not a good solution.

I would argue this is completely false. As a "millennial", i find the traditional banking system antiquated and incredibly slow and expensive.

I do not trust any government. What I do is my own business unless it is putting others at harm - which is one reason i support autonomous vehicles.

I've made a fair good amount of money from crypto. It has been incredibly hassle free and definitely has NOT costed me more money. Yes if you consider the recent down turn a hassle, then okay, it is a hassle, but transacting and transferring it is far easier.

Crypto is here to stay, governments around the world will allow it to continue to build and this is not something that will replace the dollar and instead it will operate side by side with the dollar.

The velocity of Tether is somewhere around 1400 annualized where the dollar is around 4. In otherwords 1 tether changes has roughly 1400 times a year where the dollar changes 4 times. It goes to show that digital money is far more efficient than existing dollars.

Over 95% of our existing currency is digital, yet it is faster to ship a brick of gold around the globe than it is to do a wire transfer - why is this?

That said, it is still early in the life of crypto, but it is maturing fast. In the 1980's when email was being adopted, if someone said that there will be a time where someone without any programming knowledge will work on a computer to make a living managing advertising ads that only live in a digital space, people would think you were crazy - yet here we are.

[chowdan]

Originally Posted by Texasvlad

Hi!

Does somebody have a real experience of using non-traditional payment methods (like Bitcoin, Gold or silver coins) while cruising abroad? Like paying for marina, food , sailboat parts?

Please, I am interested about fist hand experience , not information from internet publications.

PS. Last topic on forum about bitcoin I found in 2014 and 2016. I found there (4 years ago) no real usage info. Correct me if i miss any.

Am glad someone brought this up. I've been in crypto since 2012. I have not cruised full time but am looking to start next year.

I dont think Bitcoin is a wise choice as a means to pay people/goods. It can work, it would work, but it is not really a great payment system. You'd be better off using something like stable coins(USDC or USDT) if you wanted to pay in a digital format.

Africa is very forward thinking and very motivated to bring the people out of incredible poverty. I believe the next 30 years are going to be incredible for this area. I believe Tunisia and Senegal has launched their own digital currencies.

Just like physical war time drives innovation towards newer more effective missiles and ways to protect souls from things(body armor for example), currency wars(intentional and unintentional) are driving innovation in money. Money is literally the only thing that has not been changed by technology until now.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Out in the Masai Mara in Kenya, locals were all using a phone payment system for pretty much everything. Some of the small towns were pretty boonie-ish.

Indeed. I think many first-world denizens on here may not be aware of the explosive growth of mobile payment systems in the third world, particularly Africa. Africa in fact has the highest penetration of mobile payments in the world:

"Sub-Saharan Africa is the only region in the world where nearly 10 percent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) transactions occur via mobile money."
https://weetracker.com/2020/09/24/ke...ments-efforts/

It's a leapfrog technology like mobile phones were -- people are using mobile pay who have never had a bank account or bank card. 10% of GDP flows through mobile payment systems! Amazing. In China, where mobile pay is now the predominant form of payment at the retail level, it's 5%.

Remember when people used to say "Just try using that mobile phone in Asia, or Africa"?


Wake up, people, it's a brave new world!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UFO

Yes you have Tether and Gold based digital currencies, but why not just have the real thing?

Hmm, well let me think:


1. So that I can't be robbed of it?
2. So I don't have to declare it at a border?
3. So it can't be civil-asset-foreiture seized by LEO's?
4. So it won't be seized by corrupt border guards?
5. So I don't lose it out of my pocket?

Originally Posted by UFO

You obviously do not get outside of the cities much....

Do you? Cash is being used less and less around the world, including in some of the most remote places. Did you see the posts about Africa and China?

[joeharter]

Bitcoin is a viable currency. It & other Crypto's may be the preferred currency one day but gold & silver will always be heavier than water.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Texasvlad

Hi!

Does somebody have a real experience of using non-traditional payment methods (like Bitcoin, Gold or silver coins) while cruising abroad? Like paying for marina, food , sailboat parts?

Please, I am interested about fist hand experience , not information from internet publications.

PS. Last topic on forum about bitcoin I found in 2014 and 2016. I found there (4 years ago) no real usage info. Correct me if i miss any.

Bitcoin seems to be an investment vehicle these days rather than a useful currency. Fungibility of precious metals will vary with cruising grounds.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by joeharter

Bitcoin is a viable currency. It & other Crypto's may be the preferred currency one day but gold & silver will always be heavier than water.

Yeah. That’s the only reason Bitcoin isn’t a good contender. Because you could leave on a transoceanic passage, and arrive to find out you have almost no money left.

That doesn’t make for a very good and reliable store of value for a cruiser.

At least with precious metals, they do go up and down, but not to the same extent. They aren’t subject to the same volatility.

But, I bet there are a few other things we have missed. Other tangible assets that you could easily bring across borders and store value, yet they are not looked at oddly.

For instance, maybe you keep a sailing trophy that you won in a regional race.

https://www.jacksontrophies.com/blog...kson-trophies/


Or maybe one of your wrenches isn’t what it seems...




I’m sorry dock head, I like you, I like a lot of your posts, you really know what you are talking about. With traditional investments, I would do everything you say in a heartbeat. but you are stuck in society. You can’t think outside the box. Or the box wrench. Ha ha

[joeharter]

[QUOTE=Chotu;3361916]Yeah. That’s the only reason Bitcoin isn’t a good contender. Because you could leave on a transoceanic passage, and arrive to find out you have almost no money left.

That doesn’t make for a very good and reliable store of value for a cruiser.

At least with precious metals, they do go up and down, but not to the same extent. They aren’t subject to the same volatility.

But, I bet there are a few other things we have missed. Other tangible assets that you could easily bring across borders and store value, yet they are not looked at oddly.

For instance, maybe you keep a sailing trophy that you won in a regional race.

https://www.jacksontrophies.com/blog...kson-trophies/


Or maybe one of your wrenches isn’t what it seems...


Oh jeez. Just looking at that pic makes me think of all the wrenches & other tools on my boat that have committed suicide. You may be right though by hiding your silver in plain sight, although customs may question that one Velcro wrapped wrench with matching glove.

shtf scenarios aside, I think that you would be better served by using your ATM card abroad. You always get the current exchange rate & some banks even reimburse your ATM fees. Plus if you lose your card over the side you can get a new one expedited.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Hmm, well let me think:


1. So that I can't be robbed of it?
2. So I don't have to declare it at a border?
3. So it can't be civil-asset-foreiture seized by LEO's?
4. So it won't be seized by corrupt border guards?
5. So I don't lose it out of my pocket?





Do you? Cash is being used less and less around the world, including in some of the most remote places. Did you see the posts about Africa and China?

1. So that I can't be robbed of it?


LOL - Plenty of Digital Currency theft going on by astute hackers.


It has been 4 years since I have been in the boonies, so things can change. I was in Jordan and Egypt then and a couple of years before India, Nepal and Thailand and once you are off the tourist trail and out in the "Boonies" even paying by card was problematic at times.