Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by chowdan

I would argue this is completely false. As a "millennial", i find the traditional banking system antiquated and incredibly slow and expensive.

I do not trust any government. What I do is my own business unless it is putting others at harm - which is one reason i support autonomous vehicles.

I've made a fair good amount of money from crypto. It has been incredibly hassle free and definitely has NOT costed me more money. Yes if you consider the recent down turn a hassle, then okay, it is a hassle, but transacting and transferring it is far easier.

Crypto is here to stay, governments around the world will allow it to continue to build and this is not something that will replace the dollar and instead it will operate side by side with the dollar.

The velocity of Tether is somewhere around 1400 annualized where the dollar is around 4. In otherwords 1 tether changes has roughly 1400 times a year where the dollar changes 4 times. It goes to show that digital money is far more efficient than existing dollars.

Over 95% of our existing currency is digital, yet it is faster to ship a brick of gold around the globe than it is to do a wire transfer - why is this?

That said, it is still early in the life of crypto, but it is maturing fast. In the 1980's when email was being adopted, if someone said that there will be a time where someone without any programming knowledge will work on a computer to make a living managing advertising ads that only live in a digital space, people would think you were crazy - yet here we are.

Most of your discussion is on the moralistic...stick it to the man...or you got lucky "so far" playing a ponzi.

As far as shipping a brick of gold being faster...try that and get back with me on how that goes. We've done it periodically in the tens of thousands range and it's usually within a day, though officially they warn that it could take up to 3 days. No standard shipping company is going to want to touch gold bullion and insurance rules for shipping companies are typically very limited or very expensive.

While we are at it, try transferring tens of thousands across the border in crypto without letting the govt know the full details....You might have to use your limited computer time in the pokey though to come back and let us know.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by UFO

1. So that I can't be robbed of it?


LOL - Plenty of Digital Currency theft going on by astute hackers.


It has been 4 years since I have been in the boonies, so things can change. I was in Jordan and Egypt then and a couple of years before India, Nepal and Thailand and once you are off the tourist trail and out in the "Boonies" even paying by card was problematic at times.

Been to every one of those locations within the last 2 years...pull a couple hundred cash out of a local ATM, and no issues anywhere. A couple hundred might be good for a week or two of expenses, so usually come across another ATM before it runs out.

Could the small amount of cash be stolen...sure but it's a small enough amount the violation would be the bigger deal than the actual loss.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UFO

1. So that I can't be robbed of it?

LOL - Plenty of Digital Currency theft going on by astute hackers.
. . .

True, but it's much easier to secure digital currency than a pile of physical cash.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by chowdan

I would argue this is completely false. As a "millennial", i find the traditional banking system antiquated and incredibly slow and expensive.

I do not trust any government. What I do is my own business unless it is putting others at harm - which is one reason i support autonomous vehicles.

I've made a fair good amount of money from crypto. It has been incredibly hassle free and definitely has NOT costed me more money. Yes if you consider the recent down turn a hassle, then okay, it is a hassle, but transacting and transferring it is far easier.. . .

Trading in and out of Bitcoin is fairly efficient compared to other investment assets. See: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...44612317301897.


Converting Bitcoin to fiat currency is somewhat cheaper than retail forex markets. Ibid. And vastly cheaper than gold. But much more expensive than trading between fiat currencies on TransferWise etc.


But you still don't avoid the banking system. You will still need local currency to pay bills and buy stuff. And with Bitcoin you are exposed to horrendous volatility, something you should only expose money you can afford to lose, according to classic rules of investing. Bitcoin is utterly unsuitable for storage of ready spending money, although one or another stablecoin might be ok. That way you are out of the banking system, but only during the storage phase -- you'll still need the banking system when you go to pay for something.

[Little John]

Let us agree on some points:
The more different value exchange systems are existing, the less is the dependency on one. Bitcoin and Co. are constructions of computer age. I hope we never must face it, but once an EMP strikes our high tech world or even you suffer a power loss or stay in a remote area, you are able to enjoy Bitcoins. Suum quique!

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Trading in and out of Bitcoin is fairly efficient compared to other investment assets. See: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...44612317301897.


Converting Bitcoin to fiat currency is somewhat cheaper than retail forex markets. Ibid. And vastly cheaper than gold. But much more expensive than trading between fiat currencies on TransferWise etc.


But you still don't avoid the banking system. You will still need local currency to pay bills and buy stuff. And with Bitcoin you are exposed to horrendous volatility, something you should only expose money you can afford to lose, according to classic rules of investing. Bitcoin is utterly unsuitable for storage of ready spending money, although one or another stablecoin might be ok. That way you are out of the banking system, but only during the storage phase -- you'll still need the banking system when you go to pay for something.

Bitcoin ATM = No banking system.

I have traveled internationally, had a client pay me in bitcoin instead of the normal way (did have to pay taxes on the income of course) and withdrew cash in the country I was visiting from a bitcoin Atm to fund my trip.

No banking system

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Little John

Let us agree on some points:
The more different value exchange systems are existing, the less is the dependency on one.

False equivalency.

I can build a million crypto currencies by duplication and slapping a different name on each but if no one is using them, they don't change anything.

Of course, there are already hundreds of traditional currencies, so the question is what are the new cyber currencies adding that old ones can't.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Bitcoin ATM = No banking system.

I have traveled internationally, had a client pay me in bitcoin instead of the normal way (did have to pay taxes on the income of course) and withdrew cash in the country I was visiting from a bitcoin Atm to fund my trip.

No banking system

You do realize those bitcoin ATMs are tied into the banking system.

[Cap.George]

In Europe, an average person uses in a multi-family home 1680kW electrical energy per year (with electrical stove and electrical water heater) . That ist equal to 4680 hrs. TV or the transfer of 1 (ONE) Bitcoin.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

While we are at it, try transferring tens of thousands across the border in crypto without letting the govt know the full details....You might have to use your limited computer time in the pokey though to come back and let us know.

Done it plenty of times but technically nothing of monetary value actually crosses a border, only access to a public ledger. Basically like a vault of gold on the space station, only the code to the vault is transferred.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rbk

Done it plenty of times but technically nothing of monetary value actually crosses a border, only access to a public ledger. Basically like a vault of gold on the space station, only the code to the vault is transferred.

1) You are playing at semantics. You could argue using the banking system is the same...except there are built in notifications to the govts that potentially taxable profits are moving across the borders.
2) Just because they are only catching up now with crypto doesn't mean they won't in the near future. Assuming Canada's tax collection agency is half as powerful as the IRS, expect it to be rough when they catch up.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

1) You are playing at semantics. You could argue using the banking system is the same...except there are built in notifications to the govts that potentially taxable profits are moving across the borders.
2) Just because they are only catching up now with crypto doesn't mean they won't in the near future. Assuming Canada's tax collection agency is half as powerful as the IRS, expect it to be rough when they catch up.

It’s not semantics, that’s similar to saying that it you had a million dollars in a bank account and you cross the border with your bank card (access keys/code), they could seize it based on the fact your trying to cross the border with it.

You still assume far too many things. Mainly that everyone is trying to do something illegal.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Bitcoin ATM = No banking system.

I have traveled internationally, had a client pay me in bitcoin instead of the normal way (did have to pay taxes on the income of course) and withdrew cash in the country I was visiting from a bitcoin Atm to fund my trip.

No banking system

And how many of those are there scattered around the world? Enough to not need the banking system? I doubt it. There are only 11 of them in the entire country of Finland, which is one of the most technologically advanced in the world, and there are zero ATMs in Finland which accept Tether or some other on-volatile crypto. Bitcoin itself is highly unsuitable as a medium of exchange due to volatility, as we have discussed.


There are zero crypto ATMs of any type in the entire country of Denmark, and zero in Sweden.


If crypto ATMs become really prevalent some day then, I agree, that could be an actual step away from the banking system. Except that the "last mile" is still physical cash, which is disappearing, so maybe not.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

1) You are playing at semantics. You could argue using the banking system is the same...except there are built in notifications to the govts that potentially taxable profits are moving across the borders.
2) Just because they are only catching up now with crypto doesn't mean they won't in the near future. Assuming Canada's tax collection agency is half as powerful as the IRS, expect it to be rough when they catch up.

I've often agreed with you, but here RBK is right -- existing rules do not require declaration of anything with respect to crypto when you cross a border. They are truly borderless, which is one of the aspects of crypto which threaten tax authorities. You don't have to carry anything with you across a border -- you could memorize your keys or store them in the cloud. No monetary instruments are crossing the border with you.



FinCen is trying to implement rules requiring exchanges to report on who buys or sells crypto, but even this is going to be tough to enforce. Crypto is very difficult to regulate -- one thing which users of them like. Especially criminals.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've often agreed with you, but here RBK is right -- existing rules do not require declaration of anything with respect to crypto when you cross a border. They are truly borderless, which is one of the aspects of crypto which threaten tax authorities. You don't have to carry anything with you across a border -- you could memorize your keys or store them in the cloud. No monetary instruments are crossing the border with you.

FinCen is trying to implement rules requiring exchanges to report on who buys or sells crypto, but even this is going to be tough to enforce. Crypto is very difficult to regulate -- one thing which users of them like. Especially criminals.

The whole point of declaring cash or other monetary equivalent is so the govt can track it entering and leaving the country, so they can tax it or look for illegal activity.

There is no requirement to declare it as you bodily cross the border but for most countries there is a requirement to declare it when the monetary value crosses the border...at least in certain countries (others intend it but it's new enough not to be specifically spelled out). Effectively it's a high tech way to smuggle cash across the border.

As far as it being difficult to enforce, the authorities have largely figured out how to track it. The IRS has added a requirement that you state on your tax return if you used crypto, so if later they find you didn't pay taxes, they can use it as evidence against you. 10-15yrs ago, it was great for criminals...now not so much.

Of course, if we are talking about a few hundred dollars worth...they likely won't bother with you. Try moving $50-100k or more on a regular basis, expect them to catch up with you if the cash enters the crypto system in one country and exits in a different country.