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Old 08-03-2021, 08:00   #106
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Who suggested it required vast storage facilities? The comment about having a vault was if you are avoiding the banking system...presumably you aren't going to use their safe deposit vaults at a bank because now you are back into the banking system. If you have a vault with long term cash supplies, that's going to be expensive to properly secure and risky if anyone finds out...now you get bad movie plots about a heist stealing a few million in gold bullion.

When high values of cash are exported legally, they are typically done thru the banking system so you can trace the source and it's legality. Art and other physical stores of great value would expect to have ownership documentation and information on how it was obtained...usually including bank records showing the purchase. Again, if you can't provide the backing for where it came from, expect them to treat it as suspicious.

Go try to insure $50k in gold bullion carried in your bilge. Tell us how that works out. Even better, tell us if they will include a clause that specifically states, they will reimburse you if the authorities take it at the border. Insurance generally won't touch confiscation by authorities for violations of the law...and since it's largely a guilty until proven innocent scenario, the insurance company isn't going to want to touch it until you can provide proof of your innocence.

Huge difference between having a grand or two on hand for emergencies vs $50k to avoid paranoia over the banking system when it introduces 10 times the risks and headaches.
Your view on this subject is extremely black and white, with limited perspective. You continue to assume that it has to be all or none when it comes to traditional banking systems and alternate means of monetary value and that if you use any alternative means, it MUST be illegal. Your view on what is an acceptable amount is also very limited in scope as $2000 usd for some may be a few months worth of cruising funds, while others it wouldn’t cover the cost of half a tank of fuel let alone any emergency repairs or provisions. It also seems like you assume every cruiser is heading to Mexico or some corrupt Central American location and while I wouldn’t cross into Mexico with large quantities of cash there are many others that I would have zero issue with. Agree to disagree but stop telling others their limitations, it simply shows yours.
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Old 08-03-2021, 08:19   #107
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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Your view on this subject is extremely black and white, with limited perspective. You continue to assume that it has to be all or none when it comes to traditional banking systems and alternate means of monetary value and that if you use any alternative means, it MUST be illegal. Your view on what is an acceptable amount is also very limited in scope as $2000 usd for some may be a few months worth of cruising funds, while others it wouldn’t cover the cost of half a tank of fuel let alone any emergency repairs or provisions. It also seems like you assume every cruiser is heading to Mexico or some corrupt Central American location and while I wouldn’t cross into Mexico with large quantities of cash there are many others that I would have zero issue with. Agree to disagree but stop telling others their limitations, it simply shows yours.
Not me deciding it's illegal activity...the authorities make that presumption it's illegal if you bypass the banking system to move large values across boarders.

If you don't like $2k/month, give us a number you think is reasonable and we can go from there on the discussion.
- If $2k is good for 6 months cruising, you probably aren't mucking about worrying about transaction costs. You probably just have it hidden somewhere onboard and it's a small enough amount, you don't have to report it. (you probably aren't going to draw any unusual attention if they do find small amounts)
- If $2k is daily expenditures, you probably have accountants documenting and warning you not to play some of the silly games suggested on this thread.

Nope, it's not just banana republics...good old USA or Europe, sneak in with large amounts of cash, bullion or other means...expect them to confiscate it if you purposely bypass the banking system.

Suggesting we just don't discuss it is showing your limitation as you haven't countered the issues.

I'm still waiting for a use other than illegal activity where there aren't better methods (and authorities have largely figured out how to track the illegal activity, so it's not that good for that anymore). Since this thread is to discuss the subject, show us a solid use plan that is more effective than traditional methods that doesn't come with major risks, costs or other downsides.
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Old 08-03-2021, 08:45   #108
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

No one, will take gold or silver of an unknown source (you). To much fake around.
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Old 08-03-2021, 08:49   #109
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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No one, will take gold or silver of an unknown source (you). To much fake around.

You can sell gold and silver in most places. But at a cost which can be very high, if you are selling a small quantity and/or you are off the beaten path. It is an extremely inefficient way to pay for cruising expenses.
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Old 08-03-2021, 08:55   #110
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

Think about what would happen in your home country (presumably the USA?) if you attempted to pay for goods and services in anything other than US$. You'd get laughed out of town. (There are a limited number of *international* transactions, notably oil, which are handled in a specific currency, regardless of the countries involved, but those are very specialised). Payment in the local currency is always preferred. And, if paying by card, always ask for the transaction to be put through as the local currency, never, ever, accept it as a conversion to your home currency: the bank/card issuer rate of conversion will always - without exception - be better than the rate used by the restaurant, carpet seller, or whatever.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:03   #111
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

Interesting discussion.
Bitcoin is interesting to me but only from the perspective that it has sucked so many people into a "currency" that has absolutely no basis in value other than that it is limited in quantity.

Do you know what else has limited quantity? A lot of things. Gold for one.
What is going on with Gold. Not much. If Gold has value and is limited in quantity, why is it not rising in value like Bitcoin? Land has a limited supply, and its value has been steadily rising. But certainly not like Bitcoin.

Satoshi (whoever that is, no one knows - shouldn't that be a point of concern?) invented Bitcoin and found some followers....

So what does Warren say about Bitcoin ??

https://markets.businessinsider.com/...1-1-1029974898

The current value of bitcoin is exactly what someone is willing to pay for it.

Who holds and mines most of the Bitcoin; The Chinese.. Who is investing in Bitcoin?? The Chinese?? Not so much. The Chinese consider Bitcoin a commodity. Its value is what people are willing to pay for it. (Again, no basis in value)

Ponzi scheme?? I'd say. Gamestop will look like a blip compared to what happens to Bitcoin.

Tesla bought a bunch of Bitcoin but just about the same time that the Chinese clamped down on Tesla in China. Coincidence... not likely.

Elon did China a huge favor.

The US Dollar has a basis in value. If you take a dollar to the store you can find out exactly what it can buy. Sure its value fluctuates, but it is so tied into existing "things", that its value is fairly stable. Plus its value is closely monitored and controlled via the money supplies.

If you hold a bunch of Bitcoin, good luck! You'll need it.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:10   #112
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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Originally Posted by rbk View Post
Your view on this subject is extremely black and white, with limited perspective. You continue to assume that it has to be all or none when it comes to traditional banking systems and alternate means of monetary value and that if you use any alternative means, it MUST be illegal. Your view on what is an acceptable amount is also very limited in scope as $2000 usd for some may be a few months worth of cruising funds, while others it wouldn’t cover the cost of half a tank of fuel let alone any emergency repairs or provisions. It also seems like you assume every cruiser is heading to Mexico or some corrupt Central American location and while I wouldn’t cross into Mexico with large quantities of cash there are many others that I would have zero issue with. Agree to disagree but stop telling others their limitations, it simply shows yours.

Actually I would say that Valhalla is pretty much right about this.


It is illegal pretty much everywhere to transport more than $10 000 worth of cash or gold without declaring it (and the threshhold for gold may be lower than that -- some countries require declaring ALL gold). Either declaring or not declaring is dangerous -- pick your poison.



It is really dangerous to carry large amounts of cash or gold almost anywhere, not just sleazy third world countries. Not only thieves, but AUTHORITIES.


Even in the U.S., officials regard large or even moderate amounts (more than a couple hundred bucks) of cash or gold as per se suspicious and strong evidence of criminal intent, and cash and gold, often with perfectly legal origin, are routinely confiscated under civil asset forfeiture laws and may be impossible to get back. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/in...-law-who-won/; https://www.economicpolicyjournal.co...erican-in.html



If we're talking about really small amounts like $2000, then what are we even talking about? Why in the world would you drag all over some foreign harbor town trying to find a place to sell a gold coin out of a small hoard like that (is that even one Krugerrand?), in order to buy $20 of groceries? And worry whether your $2000 has actually turned into $1500 because the price has gone down?


$2000 is not a large stack of $100 bills. If you insist on avoiding the banking system, then at least do it with actual money, but be aware that you can be robbed of it at any moment. And this does not only happen in third world countries.



To my mind, this is just completely irrational behavior, driven by some kind of irrational fear.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:22   #113
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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Do you know what else has limited quantity? A lot of things. Gold for one.
What is going on with Gold. Not much. If Gold has value and is limited in quantity, why is it not rising in value like Bitcoin? Land has a limited supply, and its value has been steadily rising. But certainly not like Bitcoin.
Gold has some significant differences:
- Supply is somewhat limited but it doesn't have a hard cap. If prices go up, mining increases...increasing the supply. Bitcoin by design must go deflationary as there is a hard cap on the number of coins and every time a coin is lost, there is no mechanism to recover it.
- Gold also has value outside of speculation. There is a few thousand years of women getting all gushy about getting a shiny trinket but also large amounts go into the electronics industry for corrosion resistant connectors...so while there is a speculative aspect to the price, it's unlikely to collapse entirely.

Of course even with all that, pretty much no one is using gold directly as a currency. Mostly it's used as a hedge but unless you are good at picking the future, you are as likely to lose as to win (again different from land or stocks where there is some volatility but if you hold for several years, you are likely to gain value).
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:18   #114
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
At this point, you are using the banking system, so the govt is tracking you and there are fees involved, so you aren't keeping the bank out of your pocket.

I believe these were the two primary goals in using it for transactions abroad.
Indeed.

Why does anyone care about government tracking you? If you came by your money honestly, what's the problem? Why in the world would they be interested in your daily living expenses as a cruiser? Paranoid a little?

There are two other issues here: (1) cost; and (2) security.

Cost is a big one. So in order of best to worst in terms of cost:

1. Transferwise etc. You get local currency at the interbank mid-market rate -- same rate buying and selling, for almost frictionless exchange back and forth between currencies, minus a small fee.

2. Debit card with multicurrency account. Not available for all that many currencies, but can be useful for example in Europe and SE Asia. You don't get the interbank rate, but between major currencies the spread might be only 100bps -- 150bps or so (1%-1.5%).

3. Debit card with no "international transaction fees" -- you lose maybe 2%-3% when you exchange into another currency.

4. Debit card WITH "international transaction fees" -- you lose the same plus a fee.

5. Cash. You lose anywhere from 3% to 20% when you exchange currency.

6. Physical Gold. In major cities in civilization, for largish volumes, the spread might be 8%. In off the beaten path third world locations you might not find anyone to buy your gold except a pawn shop. How much do you lose -- 50%? Another downside to gold besides the horrendous transaction costs is volatility of the price, much less than Bitcoin, but much more than major currencies. Feel lucky?

7. Bitcoin. You can convert Bitcoin efficiently into local currencies, but the extreme volatility makes this really unsuitable for daily expenses.

Now security:

Transferwise and banks are only as secure as the institution. Plus marks for banks with deposit insurance. High marks to U.S. banks for protection against fraud. You are mostly not responsible for fraudulent charges; huge advantage. If you lose a card, you can get it replaced quickly and easily, anywhere in the world. Even without a card, you can make bank transfers or use ApplePay, GooglePay, etc.

Cash -- very poor security. Very risky (or illegal) to carry large amounts across international borders, liable to theft or robbery, no protection against fraud.

Physical gold -- as bad as cash, and even much more expensive and inconvenient to convert into local currency.

Bitcoin -- very good security unless you lose your key!!! But no protection at all against fraud.
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Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:04   #115
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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Not me deciding it's illegal activity...the authorities make that presumption it's illegal if you bypass the banking system to move large values across boarders. If its digital currency you're not carrying anything on you anyways, anything else being legally reported isn't illegal and not necessarily bypassing any financial laws

If you don't like $2k/month, give us a number you think is reasonable and we can go from there on the discussion.Each persons amount is different as are their perception of risk
- If $2k is good for 6 months cruising, you probably aren't mucking about worrying about transaction costs. You probably just have it hidden somewhere onboard and it's a small enough amount, you don't have to report it. (you probably aren't going to draw any unusual attention if they do find small amounts)
- If $2k is daily expenditures, you probably have accountants documenting and warning you not to play some of the silly games suggested on this thread. I know many people who carry around $8k plus in their wallets on a daily basis. If you need an accountant to tell you how to manage more than $2K you really shouldn't own a boat

Nope, it's not just banana republics...good old USA or Europe, sneak in with large amounts of cash, bullion or other means...expect them to confiscate it if you purposely bypass the banking system. again if reported then a non issue

Suggesting we just don't discuss it is showing your limitation as you haven't countered the issues. Not suggesting it not be discussed jut your tolerance to financial risk is far lower than others

I'm still waiting for a use other than illegal activity where there aren't better methods (and authorities have largely figured out how to track the illegal activity, so it's not that good for that anymore). Since this thread is to discuss the subject, show us a solid use plan that is more effective than traditional methods that doesn't come with major risks, costs or other downsides.
Here are just a few Wp's with alternate use cases on various top cryptos. You need to understand the concept of the internet of things before you make any further comments like the above. While BC is the 'first mover' in the crypto space there are many other better suited for various things that will move the world towards the IoT.

https://ripple.com/files/ripple_cons...whitepaper.pdf

https://ethereum.org/en/whitepaper/

https://why.cardano.org/en/introduction/motivation/

https://www.stellar.org/papers/stell...ocol?locale=en
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:24   #116
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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Here are just a few Wp's with alternate use cases on various top cryptos. You need to understand the concept of the internet of things before you make any further comments like the above. While BC is the 'first mover' in the crypto space there are many other better suited for various things that will move the world towards the IoT.

https://ripple.com/files/ripple_cons...whitepaper.pdf

https://ethereum.org/en/whitepaper/

https://why.cardano.org/en/introduction/motivation/

https://www.stellar.org/papers/stell...ocol?locale=en
But no bitcoin papers? That's interesting. You do realize some of the others have made efforts to mitigate the worst of bitcoin's flaws. They still generally have some issues but not as many.

If you are using bitcoin to bypass physical carrying something across the border...be careful. Govts have caught on and are tracking transactions...it's all there in the ledger and you are fooling yourself if you think they can trace it to individuals.

Not buying you know individuals who carry $8k in cash on a regular basis. If nothing else it's a pain...that's 80 $100bills. After 15-20 bills, the wallet starts not wanting to close correctly. Honestly most of the uber rich have people who go around behind them paying for things. Or do you think Bill Gates fishes out a $100 bill to pay for his morning Starbucks.

Reporting doesn't protect you from odd behavior. In fact it is likely to draw scrutiny and yes, it's well documented, that they will take the cash and presume you guilty until proven innocent under forfeit laws (a lot of it is out of control but it's the way things work).

My tolerance for financial risk isn't lower than average. My tolerance for foolish behavior is lower.
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:24   #117
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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Actually I would say that Valhalla is pretty much right about this.


It is illegal pretty much everywhere to transport more than $10 000 worth of cash or gold without declaring it (and the threshhold for gold may be lower than that -- some countries require declaring ALL gold). Either declaring or not declaring is dangerous -- pick your poison.
Go back and actually read my other posts as well, you're missing lots


It is really dangerous to carry large amounts of cash or gold almost anywhere, not just sleazy third world countries. Not only thieves, but AUTHORITIES. Go back and actually read my other posts as well, you're missing lots


Even in the U.S., officials regard large or even moderate amounts (more than a couple hundred bucks) of cash or gold as per se suspicious and strong evidence of criminal intent, and cash and gold, often with perfectly legal origin, are routinely confiscated under civil asset forfeiture laws and may be impossible to get back. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/in...-law-who-won/; https://www.economicpolicyjournal.co...erican-in.html
Go back and actually read my other posts as well, you're missing lots



If we're talking about really small amounts like $2000, then what are we even talking about? Why in the world would you drag all over some foreign harbor town trying to find a place to sell a gold coin out of a small hoard like that (is that even one Krugerrand?), in order to buy $20 of groceries? And worry whether your $2000 has actually turned into $1500 because the price has gone down? Go back and actually read my other posts as well, you're missing lots


$2000 is not a large stack of $100 bills. If you insist on avoiding the banking system, then at least do it with actual money, but be aware that you can be robbed of it at any moment. And this does not only happen in third world countries. Go back and actually read my other posts as well, you're missing lots



To my mind, this is just completely irrational behavior, driven by some kind of irrational fear.
Lastly...Go back and actually read my other posts, you're clearly missing something here as I've addressed all your comments in one form or another. I am not advocating any of this nor am I wearing a tinfoil hat and keeping my money in a dirty mattress buried in my back yard, just simply that wandering the world with only a credit card in hand is just as stupid as dragging around a ruck sack with a million in twenties. The amount at which people are comfortable carrying (+/-) is a personal matter and is entirely up to the individual and what they're comfortable loosing. Personally $2k for emergencies on my boat is not nearly enough (can't get towed for that price) and would be more comfortable closer to the $10K limit for most places, $2K for crossing into somewhere questionable but usually questionable places your dollars go further (and less if I'm carrying it on myself walking around). Someone else might find my number too low and want double/triple that; If they're willing to lose that without a second thought then who are you to tell them otherwise? Its all relative. It's like picking a black jack table in Vegas, are you comfortable at the $5 table or the $50K table?
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:59   #118
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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But no bitcoin papers? That's interesting. You do realize some of the others have made efforts to mitigate the worst of bitcoin's flaws. They still generally have some issues but not as many.

If you are using bitcoin to bypass physical carrying something across the border...be careful. Govts have caught on and are tracking transactions...it's all there in the ledger and you are fooling yourself if you think they can trace it to individuals.I personally have no faith in BC, slow, expensive and energy intense, as a perceived store of value? Maybe but who knows how long that will last. Right now though with it being the most easily traded with fiat and highest paring for crypto it has an intermediary use case for now but with more pairing and easier access with exchanges it is becoming less and less relevant

Not buying you know individuals who carry $8k in cash on a regular basis. If nothing else it's a pain...that's 80 $100bills. After 15-20 bills, the wallet starts not wanting to close correctly. Honestly most of the uber rich have people who go around behind them paying for things. Or do you think Bill Gates fishes out a $100 bill to pay for his morning Starbucks.Actually worked for him for a number of years, great guy always spread him money around town (in a good way, not 'showy'), was never concerned about losing money (he lost what some would consider a lot on various ventures, but it was for something he was passionate about) and his other businesses more than made up for it. Wouldn't call him 'uber rich' was just comfortable with what he had and liked to have a fun time and make others happy

Reporting doesn't protect you from odd behavior. In fact it is likely to draw scrutiny and yes, it's well documented, that they will take the cash and presume you guilty until proven innocent under forfeit laws (a lot of it is out of control but it's the way things work). Agreed but isn't applicable to everywhere, believe it or not, not every customs agent in the world is after your money and many in developed nations recognize that reported funds leave a paper trail and are legitimate

My tolerance for financial risk isn't lower than average. My tolerance for foolish behavior is lower.
With risk comes reward By your logic no one should take a boat across an international border either, thieves could take it and part it out, considering the average cruising boat is 10-50 times the $10K reporting limit...
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Old 08-03-2021, 12:27   #119
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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Here are just a few Wp's with alternate use cases on various top cryptos. You need to understand the concept of the internet of things before you make any further comments like the above. While BC is the 'first mover' in the crypto space there are many other better suited for various things that will move the world towards the IoT.

https://ripple.com/files/ripple_cons...whitepaper.pdf

https://ethereum.org/en/whitepaper/

https://why.cardano.org/en/introduction/motivation/

https://www.stellar.org/papers/stell...ocol?locale=en
Another thought came based on your post.

As I mentioned, many people confuse blockchain with bitcoin. A lot of the technology behind crypto is very useful but for the most part it's open source...as shown by your quick listing, everyone and their brother is "creating" crypto. I expect the vast majority of these to be flushed out of the system in short order.

Bitcoin is mostly in the lead due to being "first to market"...many of the others are far better designed but even there they run a huge risk.

Banks have already implemented parts of crypto.

Nothing stopping a govt from making a crypto-dollar, crypto-peso or crypto-euro, etc...Given the incentive of govts to control currency, you can expect they will go this route before they bow out of currency all together. It's really just a matter of going thru the process of conversion.
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Old 08-03-2021, 12:34   #120
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Re: Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

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With risk comes reward By your logic no one should take a boat across an international border either, thieves could take it and part it out, considering the average cruising boat is 10-50 times the $10K reporting limit...
Much harder to do as the govt doesn't like people importing products to sell without getting their cut. Then again parting out a $200k boat is likely only going to get you $10-20k with a whole lot of effort and risk of getting caught. Simple B&E and walk away with $50k in gold bullion...as you say, it's small enough to slip in your pocket and as long as they aren't stupid, awful difficult to track down.

As far as risk:
- A middle age couple who fits the profile, shows up in a $500k boat, doesn't draw any unusual scrutiny. It fits the pattern of cruisers.
- Pretty much anyone shows up at the border with $50k cash or bullion...it's pretty much guaranteed, they will presume the worst and confiscate it unless you have a darn good excuse.
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