Share survey(s) with prospective buyers?

[bemao]

My wife and I purchased a project boat a little over two years ago. Before purchasing, we had a survey done which was very thorough and listed a huge number of, shall we say, "areas for improvement." The survey also said that, apart from the problems listed, the hull, decks, rigging are all in good/satisfactory condition. It also estimated the value of the boat as $x.

The boat did not have an engine when we purchased it, so after closing, we installed a new engine. In order to get the boat insured, we needed to have a second survey done, one which specified that the boat was basically seaworthy. This second survey was what the surveyor referred to as an "insurance survey." It has very little detail other than just, "the boat is in basically fine condition. value is $X, replacement value is $X*10." [Note: x<X, i.e. the value of the boat increased with the installation of the new engine, as you might expect].

We now need to sell the boat. My question is what are my obligations regarding sharing one or both of the two surveys above with prospective buyers? It seems like I have four options: 1. lie and tell prospective buyers that I didn't have a survey done. 2. say I did have a survey, but I won't share it (which might seem like i'm trying to hide something). 3. share only the second survey (which actually mentions the first survey, so this might also be seen as suspicious). 4. share both surveys.

To date, I have gone with option 4. The problem is, once i send the surveys, I never hear another word from the buyers, even those that seemed interested when looking at the boat (my wife is convinced that they take one look at the first survey and run for the hills).

Other things to note: 1. the boat is currently priced at the value estimated by the second survey. 2. the boat is priced in the mid $30k's - a price point where people wouldn't necessarily spring for a survey of their own. 3. as far as I know, the boat is in reasonable/good condition, apart from a few obvious issues (i.e. I am not trying to hide any big, but hidden problems)

What are my obligations here?

[mikedefieslife]

No obligations at all. The surveys will say on the front of them that they are prepared for you. Not anyone else.

If I had a current survey I would share once an offer and deposit had been paid. So in your shoes I would share the second survey. The first survey sounds like it is old anyway, so not really going to be of much use to the buyer.

Depending on the money at stake, a buyer will hire their own surveyor anyway.

[S/V Illusion]

Your obligation is to honestly answer questions, not volunteer old surveys which are largely irrelevant. Especially the second insurance survey which is meaningless.

As a buyer, I would never make a purchase decision even in part based upon any survey paid for by a seller.

[Nicholson58]

You own the surveys. They were prepared for you. You bought them.

[Dave_S]

My advice is not supply either survey, they will be part of the boats description and if there is a problem with a description in the survey the new owner may point to that and say the boat was not as described.

I'd tell them to make their own evaluation.

[Mike OReilly]

As others have already said, you have no obligation to share the survey. You do have an moral (if not legal) obligation to be honest, and to disclose pertinent details.

I used my own survey as a sales tool. But if I thought it was not a good tool, I wouldn't use it. The fact that people are going quiet after seeing your surveys tells you something. Maybe the surveys are too scary, or maybe the boat is over priced. Or maybe you just haven't found the right buyers yet.

[psk125]

As a potential buyer, I would not trust a survey furnished by the seller. It might be hiding something. If the first survey is as explicit as you say, and I, as a potential buyer think it may be hiding something worse, you can see why people lose interest. Your potential buyers know that this is a project boat. As others have said, let them make their own evaluations and ask their own questions. Your job is to answer their questions as best you can. You have a survey that says the boat is essentially seaworthy. You can tell them that. You have a survey that says there are a number of things that could be improved. You can tell them that, but they can pay their own surveyor to find out what those things might be.

[bemao]

Thanks, all! I think I'll keep the surveys to myself moving forward. Looks like the wife was right on this one I appreciate all of your comments

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by bemao

...We now need to sell the boat. My question is what are my obligations regarding sharing one or both of the two surveys above with prospective buyers? It seems like I have four options: 1. lie and tell prospective buyers that I didn't have a survey done. 2. say I did have a survey, but I won't share it (which might seem like i'm trying to hide something). 3. share only the second survey (which actually mentions the first survey, so this might also be seen as suspicious). 4. share both surveys....

In a post somewhere here Dockhead referred to a boat as akin to a helicopter in that it's a collection of a lot of components each with a relative condition and service life (= value/worth). This is quite true. I've bought/sold many aircraft whose individual value is roughly the same as the average cruising sailboat. For years it's been customary for the aircraft owner/seller to provide .pdf copies of all records of the plane, going back to the factory, to people who inquire about the plane (not just after an offer was made; this would seem like the seller was hiding something). It's a freaking plane, they all have warts, and it's not like Jimmy Hoffa's body is in the back. Same with boats.

Why aren't boat buyers as finicky?

I'd never buy a boat for more than "lowest in class price" if the owner couldn't produce a realistic status/problem list of his own manufacture as well as previous surveys. In today's world, with so many project boats, this means I'd hard pass on someone reserved with paper who couldn't tell me about the status of everything on the boat. Who wants to superficially inspect (pay for a survey) and potentially spend a lot of money on someone else's mystery box, whether they are hiding something or not.

The dominant position in this thread seems more like used-car selling tactics. Good luck with the sale.

[OS2Dude]

Every Survey I've had done states it is for ME only and not to be shared. So you don't have to lie about anything, just tell them you are not allowed to share the survey. As others have said, old surveys are barely worth the paper they're printed on anyway unless they were done in the last month or so.

[Ken Pole]

I think that if asked whether you had the boat surveyed, you have to answer in the affirmative. If that leads to a question about whether a prospective buyer can read it/them, I would have no issue with sharing it for information's sake, i.e. do not let the paperwork leave your possession.

[Shrew]

1) Anyone who trusts a survey supplied by the Seller or Broker is an idiot.

2) The survey is "pay to play" IMHO. If you want to see a survey, then pay for the survey. The buyer has no right to view a survey paid for by someone else. While some may say they've gotten or given them (which is fine) however there is no obligation and should be no expectation that one be provided simply because it exists.

3) Old survey's show what needs to be done, not what has been done. Supplying an old survey which indicates things that need to be fixed is suicide for the seller. It is fine to use a survey as a roadmap of where to go, but not where you've been. Consider the following statements:

1) delamination in bulkhead tabbing (Issue has since been repaired)

2) Stringers, bulkheads in good shape

The latter is what the buyer sees when they have their own survey. The former is what they see if you provide your old survey. Do you really want to put a question in their mind that there was a potentially significant issue which was remediated. Or an assurance that there are no issues?

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by Singularity

In a post somewhere here Dockhead referred to a boat as akin to a helicopter in that it's a collection of a lot of components each with a relative condition and service life (= value/worth). This is quite true. I've bought/sold many aircraft whose individual value is roughly the same as the average cruising sailboat. For years it's been customary for the aircraft owner/seller to provide .pdf copies of all records of the plane, going back to the factory, to people who inquire about the plane (not just after an offer was made; this would seem like the seller was hiding something). It's a freaking plane, they all have warts, and it's not like Jimmy Hoffa's body is in the back. Same with boats.

Why aren't boat buyers as finicky?

I'd never buy a boat for more than "lowest in class price" if the owner couldn't produce a realistic status/problem list of his own manufacture as well as previous surveys. In today's world, with so many project boats, this means I'd hard pass on someone reserved with paper who couldn't tell me about the status of everything on the boat. Who wants to superficially inspect (pay for a survey) and potentially spend a lot of money on someone else's mystery box, whether they are hiding something or not.

The dominant position in this thread seems more like used-car selling tactics. Good luck with the sale.

The sad reality is that is absolutely fact. There are ZERO seller disclosure requirements in the used recreational marine market. (Unlike real estate, or certified aircraft). The basic premise is if it’s bad, try to hide it and hope they don’t catch it on their survey. And surveyor’s vary hugely in their training and skill levels (Society membership is not an indicator of competence or professionalism). Even “good” surveyors can miss things. Also, some issues are well hidden, or may be developing. So - it can be a scary gamble out there. Best advice to sellers is to clean and polish her up. Appearance is huge. Bright and shiny can distract buyer and some surveyors alike. To sellers... research the heck out of the boat and mechanicals. Do your best due diligence, especially in the hiring of a surveyor. Then, place your bets and take your chances. Jump on in... the water’s fine!


Edit: I realize this is a generalization that may ruffle a few feathers. I’m sure many will jump in - insistent that their surveyor or situation is different. Agreed... there are a few honest people left. Likewise, there are some competent, skilled surveyors.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by bemao

We now need to sell the boat. My question is what are my obligations regarding sharing one or both of the two surveys above with prospective buyers? It seems like I have four options: 1. lie and tell prospective buyers that I didn't have a survey done. 2. say I did have a survey, but I won't share it (which might seem like i'm trying to hide something). 3. share only the second survey (which actually mentions the first survey, so this might also be seen as suspicious). 4. share both surveys.

A nice way around this might be to of course acknowledge the surveys, but brush it aside as irrelevant since you've done a ton of work, even installed an engine! I'd be honest about work outstanding and I assume the valuation reflects condition (BTW - the surveyor's estimate is some sort of WAG).

If your boat were valued high enough that people might fly-in to see it, I might consider getting a fresh survey - with COVID, having an objective view of the condition would help a buyer pick your boat. But given your price point, buyers would be local so they can come see the boat if they are interested.

Good luck with the sale!

Peter

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

.... The fact that people are going quiet after seeing your surveys tells you something. Maybe the surveys are too scary, or maybe the boat is over priced.

I've seen quite a few boats for sale with the seller quoting the "replacement value" in a survey, and pricing accordingly. But the truth is, many of these estimations are grossly exaggerated. If you want the boat to sell, compare prices of other similar boats. There are online sources for such comps.