Switching to wood - let me have it.

[Chotu]

Alow me to fix your post. You were too kind. Ha ha

My plan, for simplicity and weight savings is to build what someone with real knowledge of carpentry like you have might call “shelves”

Basically a set of simple stick frame boxes. Then put a face piece on with holes to reach inside and put stuff in them.

An old boat I had was fitted with these. They are extremely lightweight and every pound counts. No heavy drawer slides, no hardware, no doors, less framing, just places to put things.

From there, I’m trying to use paint or 8lbs per sheet Formica for the faces with the holes cut in them. . Not sure where I’m going with that yet. Have to keep the per panel weight down to 20lbs.

Countertops, I’m thinking Formica with a foam core?

I know jack $£|T about this stuff. Nothing. And I’m sure I can’t get the skills necessary to build carpenter style cabinetry on my timeline of getting this thing done fast enough to go sailing soon.

So I’m thinking the KISS principle of the shelves with front face and counter top will be best for my low skill level.

Would you agree?

Originally Posted by joelhemington

Sounds like you're a bit short on basic cabinetry knowledge. For your corners a Ryobi mini biscuit joiner will work great (about a 100 bucks) and create a bond you can't break. It basically uses Birch mini biscuits that absorb the glue thus expanding them in the slots. I'm a bit confused about your frames. Normally for any kind of cabinet you'd use slotted frames to hold face panels. You'd need a router table with the appropriate tongue and groove bit set to do this. For the rails (top and bottom) you'd cut them longer to accommodate creating a tongue that joins into the adjacent stile slots thereby eliminating the need for a biscuit. Using foam for the doors is common with pro boat builders concerned with weight. They tend to cover the foam panels with a nice veneer. For the hinges, I'd use Euro style hinges as they're easier to adjust - get the best ones you can afford. I've used various grades and you really get what you pay for here. Think Blum.

[goboatingnow]

Why not follow modern euro practice and build the cabinetry self framing , you can even use a lot of the 32mm joining systems to avoid complicated joinery. Face frames are double the work in my view

I’d avoid foam core unless you know what your doing and have vacuum bagging Gear etc.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Why not follow modern euro practice and build the cabinetry self framing , you can even use a lot of the 32mm joining systems to avoid complicated joinery. Face frames are double the work in my view

What? LOL. I don’t even understand what this means.

Self framing?

Googling that now.

And sorry. I’m not finding examples of this.

The thing I understand about your post, having no cabinetry knowledge, is “go boating now”. That’s my #1 mantra trying to figure all this out.

[rslifkin]

If you're not quite sure what you need, make the simplest cabinets you can come up with and see how they work for you. Then figure out what to adjust once you've used them for a while and run out of more important projects to do.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

If you're not quite sure what you need, make the simplest cabinets you can come up with and see how they work for you. Then figure out what to adjust once you've used them for a while and run out of more important projects to do.

Shelves with the face plate over them.

I get that. A set of not pretty shelves in say, the galley, counter on the top of them. Then put a face, the whole length of the shelves on the frame. Like a whole sheet of plywood at once, with some holes in it to reach into the shelves and also to hold everything on the shelves.

I understand this.

And maybe I can take that face off someday and change them if I feel the need?

You’re absolutely right.

This isn’t a hobby for me. It’s getting a boat finished to use. I’m (obviously) more of a skipper than a builder. At least with this kind of stuff that everyone knows as common knowledge except me. Vacuum resin infusion to build hulls? No problem! Any glass work? No problem! Electrical, plumbing, systems? No problem!

Cabinetry, doors, rigging? Not so good.


And there is a TON of stuff to do, as you’re well aware.

Thank you for your patience and all your contributions. They are MUCH appreciated.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Chotu

What? LOL. I don’t even understand what this means.

Self framing?

Googling that now.

And sorry. I’m not finding examples of this.

The thing I understand about your post, having no cabinetry knowledge, is “go boating now”. That’s my #1 mantra trying to figure all this out.

There are two basic means of building cabinets , stick built , essentially you build a frame carcass , which is the structural bit. Then you “ hang”/attach decorative panels to complete the cabinet. The panels can be thin as they are not structural.

The other method Is where the cosmetic panels are also the structural support , ie the panels are strong enough , eg 12-15mm ply for example. These can be joined with a number of Techniques many derived from kitchen assembly ( aka the 32mm system ) , this removes The need for “ joinery “ and most things are just screwed together

The cosmetics can be as finished or as rough as you desire. Plain painted ply for example.

All you really need is an ability to cut down 8x4 panels into sizes to suit.

Essentially it’s a series of ply boxes.

Use good quality BB grade ply or better , moisture resistant. Seal and paint. it’s the fastest easiest method to make “ cabinets “ (Galleys, settee bases etc ) etc.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Shelves with the face plate over them.

I get that. A set of not pretty shelves in say, the galley, counter on the top of them. Then put a face, the whole length of the shelves on the frame. Like a whole sheet of plywood at once, with some holes in it to reach into the shelves and also to hold everything on the shelves.

I understand this.

And maybe I can take that face off someday and change them if I feel the need?

You’re absolutely right.

This isn’t a hobby for me. It’s getting a boat finished to use. I’m (obviously) more of a skipper than a builder. At least with this kind of stuff that everyone knows as common knowledge except me. Vacuum resin infusion to build hulls? No problem! Any glass work? No problem! Electrical, plumbing, systems? No problem!

Cabinetry, doors, rigging? Not so good.


And there is a TON of stuff to do, as you’re well aware.

Thank you for your patience and all your contributions. They are MUCH appreciated.

And you can always put doors over those holes to keep the stuff in.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

And you can always put doors over those holes to keep the stuff in.

You’d be surprised. Nothing falls out (catamaran).

But I get your point.

[Chotu]

Thank you for the additional information

Can anyone in the states show me the common systems in use here?

I’m guessing there is an equivalent to the 32mm system?

Just want to double check this for weight.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There are two basic means of building cabinets , stick built , essentially you build a frame carcass , which is the structural bit. Then you “ hang”/attach decorative panels to complete the cabinet. The panels can be thin as they are not structural.

The other method Is where the cosmetic panels are also the structural support , ie the panels are strong enough , eg 12-15mm ply for example. These can be joined with a number of Techniques many derived from kitchen assembly ( aka the 32mm system ) , this removes The need for “ joinery “ and most things are just screwed together

The cosmetics can be as finished or as rough as you desire. Plain painted ply for example.

All you really need is an ability to cut down 8x4 panels into sizes to suit.

Essentially it’s a series of ply boxes.

Use good quality BB grade ply or better , moisture resistant. Seal and paint. it’s the fastest easiest method to make “ cabinets “ (Galleys, settee bases etc ) etc.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Alow me to fix your post. You were too kind. Ha ha

My plan, for simplicity and weight savings is to build what someone with real knowledge of carpentry like you have might call “shelves”

Basically a set of simple stick frame boxes. Then put a face piece on with holes to reach inside and put stuff in them.

An old boat I had was fitted with these. They are extremely lightweight and every pound counts. No heavy drawer slides, no hardware, no doors, less framing, just places to put things.

From there, I’m trying to use paint or 8lbs per sheet Formica for the faces with the holes cut in them. . Not sure where I’m going with that yet. Have to keep the per panel weight down to 20lbs.

Countertops, I’m thinking Formica with a foam core?

I know jack $£|T about this stuff. Nothing. And I’m sure I can’t get the skills necessary to build carpenter style cabinetry on my timeline of getting this thing done fast enough to go sailing soon.

So I’m thinking the KISS principle of the shelves with front face and counter top will be best for my low skill level.

Would you agree?

Ha,ha

Yes I'm inclined to agree with you While I was writing my post I had the sneaky feeling all this might be over your head but was hoping that maybe if I could explain how to do it properly, we might not have this conversation again. Maybe something like this would be more your speed https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...3CnEaAiDNEALw_ You don't have to build anything and they should be there by the time you get those windows fixed.

Ps, I'm glad you finally sprang for that good facemask.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Hmmm.

I sprayed the stuff I do have done already. I also sanded, primed, sanded and sprayed. It came out nice, no question.

But, I had a real shop then. I had an ingersol rand compressor taller than me, a very expensive gun loaned by the sales rep for company I bought the paint from, a 2 1/2 gallon pressure pot also loaned by them. But most importantly for Florida, an extremely complicated system of pipes on the wall that allowed the air to expand, cool, and drop moisture out before it reached my gun. There were several drain valves, filter dryers, etc.

I’m guessing a cheap airless paint sprayer is not going to deliver these results?

In fact my boat was the first thing I ever sprayed and it came out flawless. I had rolled lots of pain in the past so it wasn’t too hard to judge how much to spray on. But I also had a good setup. .

Harbor Freight. They sell a whole manner of spray equipment and compressors for 1/5 the price of normal brands, the tools work fine. You are working with formica so I hope you have a trim router (laminate trimmer/ rotozip etc) An Oscilating tool (Multimaster or Fein type,order the blades on Ebay).

So you are going for Formica surfaces. What about the corners? Is the Formica inset into something or are the black beveled edges exposed. Lots of directions you could go here. Could incorporate light color wood. Radiused corners and edges are nice and easy to accomplish with wood as well as the finish, water base is fine inside and can finish 3-4 coats in same day. Gives a warmer look and softens the corners. Gives you a way to edge the formica for a clean look. Maple is readily available glues well and is easy to finish. Insides of cabinets can be finished clear. Look for birch veneered ply. Doesn't need to be marine grade. Will just need a light sanding and can be prefinished by the panel. The clear waterbase varnishes are actually easier and faster to apply than a smooth painted surface. It is a shorter path to a nicer finish in areas that don't get formica. (clearcoated birch ply instead of paint.)

[Buzzman]

Chotu, there are several problems.

Firstly, you admit not having any 'carpentry skills'. So who built the hulls, and from what? You say wood is not a user-friendly material...?? I fundamentally disagree, but YMMV.... lol

Look, basically, if you can *accurately* use a tape measure and a pencil, and you can *accurately* use and safely operate a circular saw or hand saw, you can build cabinets. It's not rocket science.

There's a guy on here, Atoll, who is refitting a 37' Prout Catamaran. He's built all the cabinetry himself. Look for his thread. Lots of pics on it.

But, to simplify it for you, you could make the sides and face from ply, or some other similar strength board. Foam is not suitable. And by foam I mean the sort of foam you'd use with fibreglass over it, which I know you really can't do, and is too time-consuming anyway...

But there are other 'foams' - like Starboard, for example. But it needs to be thick (and thus heavy) to obtain the same structural strength as thin ply. And really should be fibreglassed, so why bother?

So yes, 1/4" ply is fine for the sides of the cabinets, and for the face sheet with access holes in it.

But the shelves depends on what you'll be putting in there. If light weight clothes, 1/4" ply is fine. But if if using for heavy engine parts, or cans of paint, or water bottles....then they need some supports underneath. How many and how thick the sheet depends on the number of dividers. And the intended load.

But, sensibly, assume 18" between vertical dividers. Over that distance, 1/4" ply shelves would sag if unsupported, with any real weight on them.

So it's best to have 'shelf-support cleats' all round. Nothing fancy. Just glue and clamp them, or glue and screw if there's fixing behind (or clamp them and then screw from behind, through the ply and into the cleat, which is not logical, until you are doing it...).

But if making these yourself, on a table or some saw trestles, preferably a table, it's easy enough to do this. Super simple, super basic. It's the glue that holds and provides the strength, but if you are in a hurry, glue, clamp and screw, then move on to the next cleat, no waiting hours for the glue to dry so you can remove the clamps. And you need less clamps!

Sensibly, these supports can be pre-glued to the vertical dividers before attaching those to the boat, making it a whole heap easier to measure and work...

Dividers (vertical, front to back pieces) often need to be custom-fitted to the curve of the hull at the back of a cabinet. Easiest way to do this is to use cardboard templates. Measure the height you need and maximum depth, then push the carboard against the side of the hull, mark and cut to shape, (and repeat till it's good), then use the resultant template to cut 1/4" ply.

Add horizontal shelf support cleats at the appropriate places. Add cleats at top and bottom of dividers to A) fasten to floor, and B) to enable fastening and support of top sheet/bench.
Add a 2x1 vertical cleat to the divider, top to bottom, at the front edge, so you have a decent 'mating surface' to later attach the 'face sheet' to them. Or, perhaps even easier, add a 1x1 cleat either side of the forward vertical edge. Just glue and clamp. Leave a 2" gap at the top (i.e. make the vertical cleats 2" shorter than the divider) and that enables you to put a 2x1 rail across the front, in between the dividers. The length of these determines how far apart each pair of dividers is.

If you are building against and existing bulkhead use that as the 'end' of the cabinet, and just glue and screw shelf support cleat and a vertical cleat to attach the shelves and front to.

Then spray paint it inside BEFORE you add the top. Either mask the cleat tops where you will need to glue the shelves later, or just accept that glue doesn't stick quite as well to paint and ignore this. You could even paint the shelves prior to installing them, saving a lot of fiddly "getting your head and spray gun into a small compartment" stuff.

Then FINALLY you glue and screw the 'face sheet' with its holes already cut, onto the forward edge of the dividers. You could even mask where there is going to be glue (for example the vertical cleats) and paint the inside before you glue it on. Remove the tape, add glue. Masking takes a few minutes, but boy does it save you some work later! And makes the cabinet stronger, as glue to wood is MUCH stronger than glue to paint. If making 'light' needs to also be 'strong'..!

If you need to make a curved corner to a cabinet, using thinner ply will enable you to bend the ply around the corner (curved left to right in a vertical cabinet face). if you REALLY want to, you could then add Formica to the surface, but paint will be quicker.

As to paint, do not use acrylic anywhere. Once water gets behind it it just 'blows' off the surface, and it doesn't take wear anywhere near as well as alkyd paints, never mind two-pack polyurethanes. (Note I am thinking of your epoxy aversion).

For the cleats, I'd just use a 3/4"x3/4" stick material, or something similar, whatever is locally available and cheap. Pine is fine but meranti or luan is easier to work. Douglas fir ok if its a select grade, not the horribly twisting 'construction grade'.

You could use 2x1" for the cleats if that's cheaper (which it often is...) but accept it's double the weight... Still not much weight, though...

Titebond glue and a couple of screws in each cleat. The screws are only to hold it while the glue cures, but for speed and simplicity use either brass or S/S CSK HD S/T screws and leave them in there. Otherwise there's just myriad holes to fill later, and more sanding...

Ply can be exterior grade, provided its made using A-bond glue. Sometimes this is not clear and difficult to confirm, so better to stick with marine ply from a reputable supplier. BS1088 standard is 'good enough' and cheaper than any more reputable standard.

"Big hardware chains" sometimes have 1/4" marine ply reasonably cheap, but double-check that it is A-bond glue. Get it in writing!

As to leaving the timber bare, you are inviting issues. For a start, mould will attack it eventually, and you can't then get rid of the spores, as they will be right inside the wood, not just on the surface. You got lucky with the wood that didn't rot, but I'll bet London to a brick that there is mould or fungus on it you can't even see.

I would treat all exposed timber with an anti-mould anti-fungal agent like DOT or similar (disodium octoborate tetrahydrate). Tim-bor is a good one. Powder that you mix with water. Can even add propylene glycol to help it 'soak in' as glycol is hydrophilic - loves water, so will seek out and bond with it, leaving the borate behind as it evaporates. Just mop it on, no need to brush or spray. Allow to dry.

Then sand and spray. Primer, thinned out a bit for preference, then undercoat, sand and then topcoat.

Bare minimum spec should be alkyd (oil-based) house paint, finishing with an 'exterior gloss'. Better spec would be two-pack polyurethane marine paint, but industrial version might be cheaper. Shop around. Two-pack polyurethane floor paint maybe..???

There are no 'short-cuts' like 'self-building cabinets' - unless you pay someone else to 'self-build' them for you!

But 'minimalism' is possible, and you, and only you, can decide the risk profile.

Atoll used epoxy and fibreglass to tab his shelves into the hull. I realise you can't do this, but adding cross rails at the hull at top bottom, and under any shelves, that will fit 'reasonably tightly' against the hull, should enable you to glue with titebond or similar polyurethane glue. Obviously, don't screw these into the hull, as you migth go right through!. You might need to tape (with masking tape) underneath the hull to cleat join to stop the glue just pouring out though. Alternately, you could use 3M5200 or similar adhesive/sealant that forms a bead and doesn't 'flow' easily. Then push the divider into it and prop, wedge or some how fix it till that goes off enough to form a good bond.

Won't be perfect, but will do the job you need them to do.

Bench tops. When designing the cabinets, adding cross rails at the front and back to support the bench top, you could keep those rails 2" down, and then place front-to-back rails across these, to which you could attach the top. Reason for doing this is that if you aim to have those pieces not more than a foot apart, you just use 1/4" ply for the tops as well, and if you like, then add Formica to the tops at least to provide a more hard wearing surface for working on. A birds eye view of this it looks like a ladder from above, prior to adding the bench top.

Sure, 3/8" would be better than 1/4" for the top, but you don't need to use 3/4", never mind the '32mm approach', which is 1-1/4". Thinner the ply on bench top, more cross rails needed.

Personally, I don't like edges finished in Formica, as the Formica is sharp, and if using contact glue to hold it down, water can get in and contact doesn't mix well with water...it softens it.

So maybe add a piece of 2x1" as an 'edge strip' to the bench once the Formica is laid down, and either paint or (much better looking) varnish it. Or use teak and leave it bare. Or use Douglas Fir and just oil it with Deks Olj or similar. But this has to be re-done annually...

Hope that helps.

[AKA-None]

I haven’t read all the posts but have you considered product that is made for log homes? Permachink

[Chotu]

Buzz man!!!!! Thank you for taking the time to outline that in such great detail!!

That’s EXACTLY what I was thinking of doing. Exactly!! Down to every detail.

I don’t have the skills to build cabinetry. You know, all those cuts to sink faces in, biscuits joints, specialized tooling, etc etc. it’s an art form and hobby for a lot of people.

I planned to do exactly what you showed. Build shelves and put a face on.

You asked who built my boat. I did. I have not used wood to build my boat and have never worked with it in the artistic sense required of what most people call cabinetry. The shelves with a face you and I are talking about. These I can handle My boat is foam and glass. Most of it was done by vacuum resin infusion. Then hand laminated in the beams and bulkheads and stuff.

I did install a galley before this way. Never finished it, but I used the same method and used a tick stick to trace out the hull curve on my dividers.

I’m surprised you think I can get away with a thin countertop. I was thinking in that part of it, it’s the one place a very stiff, foam core panel would work perfectly with very little support below. Just some extra cleats for the sink to make it more robust there and give something for the sink to attach to.

Wood of choice will be 1/4” Okoume best you can buy in the USA. I used the half inch for my cabin soles. I’ll look into the other species suggested, but Okoume is light.

Thumbs up:

The corners are a huge issue for me. I never know what to do with them. I’ve noticed people caulk a lot of things like that. Was thinking about getting caulk happy and making nice little silicone beads on the inside corners and fill in gaps where my fit is poor. I’m sure everyone will hate that idea. I could do it in polyester coves too. Maybe that would be acceptable?

Could I also use a polyester filler to do outside corners where things come together poorly and to generally round edges off so they look factory made? Or do I really need to put a long piece of trim down each outside edge? Creating a recess area for the face to sit in and then router the edge to round it over? I’m sure I’ll still have some kind of gap to fill doing that.

I’m not sure regarding Formica or paint. Both have pluses and minuses. Would a roll and tip on cabinet be out of the question? I am pretty sure I can’t run a compressor big enough to paint on my boat. It’s off grid. I have 2.5kw on each generator to work with. (I have 2 generators instead of one big one). So I’m limited to airless high pressure spray, rolling or roll and tip or Formica.

[rslifkin]

You could manage enough compressor to paint with from those generators. Just have to get a little creative. Think like a pair of 30 gallon / 120v compressors. 1 on each generator. Basically put the air output of each compressor in parallel. A quick search says 10 - 14 scfm at 40 psi for HVLP spray. A pair of these would give you 14.6 scfm at 40 psi, for example: https://www.harborfreight.com/29-gal...sor-61489.html


Depending on actual air demand, you may have to take an occasional break for the compressors to catch up, but with 60 gallons of tank capacity, that shouldn't be all that frequent.


Depending on whether the compressor already has a provision to unload the pump for motor start, you might need to add an unloader to reduce the startup kick to something the generators can handle. But as long as the thing starts, a 2.5kw will run a compressor that size with no issues.