Switching to wood - let me have it.

[Tupaia]

1. Cabinets made from paper honeycombe with glass kevlar skins, can be glued and taped with polyester (epoxy is better but understand your personal issues with this).


2. Formica can be heat formed to create roll edges and foam - polyester backed. It must be vacuum bagged under a press, large sheets benefit from a counter pane (backside of Formica) but this does increase the weight.


3. Formalux Ultra (by Brett Martin) is an expanded PVC that is hard and shinny on one side that can be used for a direct replacement for plywood and requires ZERO finishing. Can also be heat formed to make entire cupboards. Formalux (not Ultra) doesn't have a shinny side can also be used and is easily painted. Comes in multiple thicknesses. Bonded with PVC pipe cement.

[Sand crab]

Vinyl and melamine faced plywood panels are frequently used inside the box by cabinet manufacturers. To be clear they are the box. You can get white or a wood grain look or just about anything else. Some manufacturers use hot melt glue to attach the cabinet boxes (carcasses) together and then attach the face frames the same way. You end up with a carcass that looks decent on the inside and assembly is really fast with no painting, sanding, sealing. A Kreg jig is great for building face frames BTW.
Horizon Cabinet Door Co will make you prefinished doors in just about every style. The quality is first rate and a flat panel door is really not that heavy. I've used them and they are fantastic.
https://www.horizoncabinetdoor.com/c...p?cat=736&pg=2


Did you look at stainless steel countertops? They aren't that heavy because they just sit on your plywood countertop and a thinner gauge is used. They are pricey but the molded in sink is very cool.

[Sand crab]

Also, alder is about the lightest "hardwood" commonly used in cabinets. Douglas fir is usually heavier although both weights can vary. DF is a PIA to work with because it can be brittle and will splinter out when routing or molding. Just sawing it isn't too bad. And it can blotch when staining.
You could order or make fust the frame of the cabinet doors and cane the area which would normally have the panel. It's lightweight and vents.

[goboatingnow]

I still don’t know why people are taking about frame construction , it’s daft these days. If you need weight reduction then look at cored panels. But it makes no sense to construct frame based furniture. It requires good carpentry skills and is complicated by rounded corners and hull side fitting

Construction where the panel is also the structural member requires less carpentry , can be finished to whatever standard ( cost /time ) you require and you can use modern kitchen /flat pack accessories for panel jointing , etc.

It’s also easier to remove or modify in the future

So rather then constructing frames and hanging thin panels , do away with most of the framing and make the panels structural

Panels can be as simple as ordinary birch ply painted etc.

If the access allows the units can be built off the boat and then tabbed onto the hull after trimming to suit.

[Sand crab]

On hot melt glue cabinets.
https://www.hotmelt.com/blogs/blog/a...-hot-melt-glue

[smj]

Originally Posted by Chotu

And how thin can I go on the cabinet walls? Is 1/4” too much? Or is that just right?

John Marples recommended 1/4” ply for our cabinets.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I still don’t know why people are taking about frame construction , it’s daft these days. If you need weight reduction then look at cored panels. But it makes no sense to construct frame based furniture. It requires good carpentry skills and is complicated by rounded corners and hull side fitting

Construction where the panel is also the structural member requires less carpentry , can be finished to whatever standard ( cost /time ) you require and you can use modern kitchen /flat pack accessories for panel jointing , etc.

It’s also easier to remove or modify in the future

So rather then constructing frames and hanging thin panels , do away with most of the framing and make the panels structural

Panels can be as simple as ordinary birch ply painted etc.

If the access allows the units can be built off the boat and then tabbed onto the hull after trimming to suit.

Can you give a link to this type of construction?

I should consider it fairly and objectively.

What I don’t understand is how to do the outside corners of this, how to attach it to the hull, how to put shelves into it. I guess just shelf cleats same as framing?

Also, the stuff inside the box is a bunch of shelves and there is no back side to the box. The hull is the back side. It’s all curved and crazy, so this is really just for the front face and what was called dividers earlier in the thread.

Thoughts on that?

My vanity doesn’t even have sides OR a back. It’s just a front and shelves since it’s between two bulkheads

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Can you give a link to this type of construction?

I should consider it fairly and objectively.

What I don’t understand is how to do the outside corners of this, how to attach it to the hull, how to put shelves into it. I guess just shelf cleats same as framing?

Also, the stuff inside the box is a bunch of shelves and there is no back side to the box. The hull is the back side. It’s all curved and crazy, so this is really just for the front face and what was called dividers earlier in the thread.

Thoughts on that?

My vanity doesn’t even have sides OR a back. It’s just a front and shelves since it’s between two bulkheads

The side panels carry the shelves , clearly you can also tab them of fix them to the hull

Here’s a comparison in relation to house furniture construction

https://www.executivekitchens.org/eu...-construction/

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I think I’ll go with brightside. Sounds like a paint that was made to be used in this situation. I’ll look up application instructions.

Yes! On my old boat I brushed and tipped my entire headliner with brightsides and it came out smooth and glossy with barely any brush marks anywhere. Key is thinning just right.
Don’t need LPU inside as there’s no UV right?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Yes! On my old boat I brushed and tipped my entire headliner with brightsides and it came out smooth and glossy with barely any brush marks anywhere. Key is thinning just right.
Don’t need LPU inside as there’s no UV right?

Good to know!

I’m sure I can get it flowing right. I’ll test it out a little bit first.

Not much UV. Correct. Very little

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I’m not completely sure of all the measurements yet so I don’t think I could have the ability to send it off for CNC. However, I do have a very nice Hitachi router and a table saw. I think I could do the bullnose and rabbet cuts without any problems. Can I use the Douglas fir boards I already have at least until it runs out? Then get maple? I’m going to paint it all gloss white anyway and bury any imperfections in the fit with polyester based bog, so a mismatch in wood should be ok. I’m basically trying to make it all look as if it’s molded plastic. Seamless. Decorative items will come from Formica countertops, the bullnose on the countertop, the edge treatment of the access holes in the front panel, flooring, etc.

I had heard about his superglue they are using now. I’ll check it out in more detail.

Great thread. Finally, I think I’m getting close to a repeatable, good looking, fast process to get all the cabinetry up. Very encouraging.

Good to see you have tablesaw and router! I'm suggesting maple because it would look really nice, varnished. Fir could mean anything from old growth straight grain to cheap home depot 2x. If you aren't going to varnish the corner trim. By all means, use what you got. Watch out for sap pockets and splinters. Fir is great wood. But it sands unevenly. If you are going to smear it up with bondo anyway, it won't matter. As for instant glue. I want to try the insta bond, didn't know there are so many types of hot glue either. Could use both. At any rate, the routered, rabbeted corner mouldings sound like a go.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Good to see you have tablesaw and router! I'm suggesting maple because it would look really nice, varnished. Fir could mean anything from old growth straight grain to cheap home depot 2x. If you aren't going to varnish the corner trim. By all means, use what you got. Watch out for sap pockets and splinters. Fir is great wood. But it sands unevenly. If you are going to smear it up with bondo anyway, it won't matter. As for instant glue. I want to try the insta bond, didn't know there are so many types of hot glue either. Could use both. At any rate, the routered, rabbeted corner mouldings sound like a go.

Cool!!! We have a repeatable process to get from point A to point B. I can just get to work now.

I’m already almost done the shower and used corecell core with Formica bonded to it with polyester. Should last forever since there are no air gaps and it’s going to be caulked around the edge. First up to build will be the vanity since the shower was not cabinetry, but rather panels instead.

I did use PUR hot glue to make my galley cabinet/shelves. Had good luck in there, but I found it inconsistent in other places. It would work sometimes, be kind of loose other times.

My router is one of my prized possessions. Like the variable speed buffer/sanders I have. All required tools for making boats. Needed the router to round off miles of square edges to bend glass over.

It’s a hitachi
.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The side panels carry the shelves , clearly you can also tab them of fix them to the hull

Here’s a comparison in relation to house furniture construction

https://www.executivekitchens.org/eu...-construction/

We call them frameless cabinets. The side panels are typically a hardwood plywood with a matching veneer edgeband that glues on to cover the exposed edges. The veneer is usually precoated with hotmelt glue so you just iron it on. Normally the sides are drilled for pins to support adjustable shelves but for your boat cleats are the way to go. If the slope of the hulls come right to the very edge of the bottom of the cabinet sides then that will be a problem because there won't be any panel left. A traditional frame cabinet may work better.
If you are painting the cabinets then use poplar for a face frame. It's affordable and doesn't have a pronounced grain. You will see the grain on painted doug fir.
Normal cabinets are 24" deep and the sink base cabinet is usually 36" wide. Kitchen sinks fit right in these.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

We call them frameless cabinets. The side panels are typically a hardwood plywood with a matching veneer edgeband that glues on to cover the exposed edges. The veneer is usually precoated with hotmelt glue so you just iron it on. Normally the sides are drilled for pins to support adjustable shelves but for your boat cleats are the way to go. If the slope of the hulls come right to the very edge of the bottom of the cabinet sides then that will be a problem because there won't be any panel left. A traditional frame cabinet may work better.
If you are painting the cabinets then use poplar for a face frame. It's affordable and doesn't have a pronounced grain. You will see the grain on painted doug fir.
Normal cabinets are 24" deep and the sink base cabinet is usually 36" wide. Kitchen sinks fit right in these.

Ok, while we are exploring these frameless cabinets (I understand these!), can we take a moment to explore the panels?

I see online they use 3/4” ply for home cabinets made this way. They also use pocket screwed. It’s common to put in pins to hold shelves. Drawers can be made as well. I’m learning so much!

This is obviously way too heavy for a boat like mine.

How can I engineer or buy a lightweight substitute panel for 3/4” ply?

I’m sure a panel like the rest of my boat (foam core) would work great, but how would you fasten those together the best way, given pocket screws would do very little driven into foam?

Also, most of my cabinetry can’t have a back, as the back is the hull. So no web to keep the boxes square like they do on the back of house frameless cabinetry. Each divider panel would be out there on its own, using the hull as a web.

I’m giving this method serious thought if the weight can be kept down for the following reasons:

1) should be faster to build because no fussy framing/ripping frames

2) if I can get my panels pre-finished before cutting them into cabinetry, I can forget all that other work of painting the cabinetry in the boat. I’ll just have to do some edgebanding. And in the case of my first project (vanity in the head) it runs bulkhead to bulkhead so there wouldn’t even be any edgebanding.



Here’s an idea:

Make up panels of foam and Formica. These weigh the same as 1/4” Okoume ply, but are significantly stiffer. Take away the extra weight of the frames and you have a LIGHTER cabinet that’s also not in need of sanding or painting. I’ve already made these for my shower area, since that wasn’t cabinetry. It was just flat panel stuff. They look great with no sanding, no painting. Edge treatment is the trickiest part.

Use these panels to make frameless cabinetry.



Problems/Challenges:

Fastening/Bonding - How do I hold these together, given pocket screws won’t do anything with a foam core? What would be the best way? I’m picturing sort of cross between a bulkhead tab and a piece of what I think is called corner molding. Like if I have a 90 degree angle between a divider and the hull, I use an adhesive or resin to glue in a block to the inside corner that holds the divider in place. Same in the front of the cabinetry. Same everywhere. But just a few of them, like they would do on production boats to tab a bulkhead in. I could also probably make use of L brackets and screws here and there but the strength is minimal into Formica/foam.

Cuts - assuming I make completely finished 4x8 Formica/foam panels, I’ll have to make jigsaw cuts the shape of the hull through Formica/foam/Formica panels. This won’t present any unforeseen problems, will it? I have the Formica jigsaw blades and can cut whatever shapes in a loose piece of Formica without chipping it. So I’m assuming it’ll be ok in panel form too?

Waste - this cabinetry method has very little waste when making square boxes at home. On a boat, however, a lot of it is cutting those dividers out to the hull shape. The off it waste seems tremendous. And these are VERY expensive panels. Any ideas to reduce the waste? Is it better to just put the extra time in to cut foam for dividers, then laminate each divider separately? Wasting time? Or is it bet to just do the 4x8 laminate in one go and throw away tons of Formica? Wasting money?

Corners - Inside corners and outside corners. Where any of this meets the hull it’ll be imperfect. For instance, picture a box that holds a mattress up sitting on a flat surface. In my boat this flat surface is the bridgedeck. When I make this box, the outside of the box, where it touches the flat surface of the bridge deck, will not meet perfectly since there are different thicknesses of the bridgedeck laminate in different spots, plus it has a camber. There will be a gap of varying size here. Is that a good candidate for caulking? Or is there a better way to handle that gap? That gap exists with wood construction too, but with Formica I can choose complicated, colorful finishes. This edge seems like it’ll be a problem no matter what. Best way to treat that type of edge?

This whole frameless idea looks really REALLY promising because it look a heck of a lot faster and easier plus looks more professional and modern.

[goboatingnow]

The way frameless works on a boat is the shelving is held by the side panels , you can’t have more the about 18” of unsupported horizontal shelving without vertical supports or you’ll get sagging

As to weight , it’s very hard to have a discussion without knowing why weight reduction is so important , are you planning on a lot of “ furniture “

Pocket screws are a US method in general , here “ frameless “ tends to use , large threaded corner joiners , however these will be challenging in foam core as compression forces will crush the core

If you really want cored construction and I’ve haven't understood why you dismiss solid ply ( 10-15mm) , then epoxy laminate a core between two thin ply faces ( this provides a expansion compensation method ) and a form core using epoxy ( low VOC ) . Place solid ply pieces instead or core, in the positions of crush resistance , join areas, hinges , etc. Join corners using “ knock down “ joiners , pocket screws or other proprietary methods.

A run through by CAD and 3D mock-up will give you all the positioning necessary

Where panels are cut to fit hull curvature, again replace the core with ply , where the cut face will be trimmed to fit the hull, this provides a strong area to the attach the panel to the hull

Carpentry largely boils down to constructing panels using a table saw , no joinery work needed

Panels can even be trial fitted , disassembled and surface finished ( paint, varnish , etc ) off the boat and reassembled. It also offers you the ability to upgrade sections in the future without the issue of remodelling the underlying frame

I spent an enjoyable day in Halberg Rassy cabinet shop,a few years ago , they build quite a lot of furniture like this , then disassemble it and reassemble it to fit in the boat