Switching to wood - let me have it.

[Chotu]

Today I found some incompatibility with attaching Formica to foam that puts an end to that technique for building cabinetry. The test piece worked. In real life it doesn’t work as well on large pieces. No matter which of the fast options I use it’s not compatible with foam. When I use the foam compatible polyester, it’s taking too long. The process is too time consuming.

So, I’m looking very hard at switching to wood again.

I had made some mistakes before working with wood and had some unexpected successes too.

Mistakes:

*temporary doors to cabin and everything else made of wood outside on the boat has already rotted away or discolored in the tropical weather. All was coated with many layers of epoxy.
*Used spar varnish polyurethane on some cabin soles. It actually held up fine in lots of areas, but where the water was pouring in from broken windows, it deteriorated.

Surprising successes:

*galley cabinetry was never finished. AT ALL. Made from Lowe’s exterior grade A/B 1/8” ply and Douglas Fir wood. Countertop made from interior ply in 5/8 with counter paint over it. Paint was a failure, but wood held up fine. All wood was a absolutely left open and untreated. No mold, no rot, no problems. No dripping water in there though.

Why did the completely untreated galley wood do better then the epoxied wood??? One was outdoors and one indoors but surely in a boat you’d expect untreated wood to last 15-20mins before complete disintegration. How did my galley wood make it through years of windows leaking and filling bilges up with water, lots and lots of rain and a complete ecosystem on the boat with plants and animals??

So I’m thinking of moving to wood.

Weight is not an issue if you’re willing to build light enough.

I still want unique and interesting faces on cabinetry and countertops and I want it to go up fast. This means Formica (8lbs a sheet). If I combine this with ultra lightweight 1/8” Okoume plywood (also 8lbs a sheet), I can make some nice faces for my “no door” cabinetry. It’ll go up faster because I can use the 20mins to bond, fully hazardous and flammable contact cement which is much nicer to work with than any resin.

I plan to built stick frame cabinetry and furniture. Then face it with Formica outside, painting it inside. Painting is the best way to seal the wood, right?

What fast, 1 step processes or products can I use to seal wood? The sealing mostly needs to be done inside cabinetry and behind things like the shower walls.

Is there a way to seal wood in a shower better that’s a 1 step process? The front would be Formica so the actual shower water and steam doesn’t get on the wood. But behind the walls needs to remain mold free.

Is going to wood a good idea?

Will it go up faster?

[Thumbs Up]

Yes it is a good idea. Haste makes waste though. Hardly any one step process to seal wood. Water and emulsion based finishes dry very fast without much odor. It is possible to flow coat over wood with a waxed polyester resin and get good results. There are crosslinking catalyzed varnishes. You have to seal the end grain, it capillaries moisture. Not even epoxy seals wood with a single coat. Varnished exterior teak will typically have 17 coats. Coated wood that gets wet through the end grain can never dry out. Wood that is submerged will not rot. Rot is caused by a fungus. Cedar and redwood are light and have some resistance to rot. A lot of cheap pine is full of knots, very sappy, not dimensionally stable so probably a poor choice. There are very heavy types of wood that will not rot. Yellow wood glues (titebond II and similar) are very easy to work with, bond quickly, clean up easily, waterproof, and low toxicity but require well mated surfaces and heavy clamping pressure. Those are a few tips, nothing more. I am reluctant to give you more specific advice. Wood is a pleasure to work with compared to most boatbuilding materials but can be meticulous and there are many variables.

[Rob_P]

Fast?

Stainless square steel tube riveted together to form frames and then skinned with more stainless. Welding the frames takes more time but it'll be stronger for things like bulkheads. I'd do it modular - make the frames as panels then install and connect together in situ. Rivet the skin and frames together like they do for aircraft. Light and strong.

It won't ever rot and doesn't require any finish although you can certainly paint it if you want to. A satin / brush finish can be achieved with a 3M pad and some elbow grease.

Don't want/like the look of an all metal interior? You can buy panels of PVC that's used to skin RV's and houseboats and use that instead of SS sheet. I believe that curves can be made with a heat gun and bending around a form if they're not compound. I'm not sure if the PVC is available in colors other than white.

[Chotu]

Hmmm. Is it better to keep wood completely unsealed like the stuff that’s been doing so well in my galley all these years? Is that the secret to its longevity?

I did get myself a full face supplied air mask with all my health issues so I can go into any concentration of anything now basically. If I have to use solvent based, not too much difficulty other than blowing myself up.

Oof. 17 coats. Yes, this is the type of thing I’m trying to avoid. Trying to get things up quickly, or as quickly as possible anyway. To come up with a nice, repeatable method for quickly building lightweight cabinetry. In this case, shelves with a face and holes cut into that face. Also some countertops. Berths. Partition walls to hide ugly things.

I was using Douglas fir for the frames. It seemed lightweight enough and that’s the stuff that hasn’t rotted left bare in a very damp (but not water running onto it) environment. I was thinking of Okoume for the ply. Regular marine stuff.

Is there no ugly white coating or thick paint or primer you can use inside cabinetry where it doesn’t matter what it looks like and it’ll seal off the wood in there? Or is the completely unfinished wood ok?

Now, I stink at woodwork. Getting my joins to mate well enough to use liquid glue will be a tremendous challenge. Is the Fuze It construction adhesive off the table? Or even better, do they make a nice Tightbond type glue that will have at least a little bit of a gap filling property?


Man, building hulls using vacuum resin infusion? EASY!

All this other seemingly smaller stuff? VERY DIFFICULT !

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Yes it is a good idea. Haste makes waste though. Hardly any one step process to seal wood. Water and emulsion based finishes dry very fast without much odor. It is possible to flow coat over wood with a waxed polyester resin and get good results. There are crosslinking catalyzed varnishes. You have to seal the end grain, it capillaries moisture. Not even epoxy seals wood with a single coat. Varnished exterior teak will typically have 17 coats. Coated wood that gets wet through the end grain can never dry out. Wood that is submerged will not rot. Rot is caused by a fungus. Cedar and redwood are light and have some resistance to rot. A lot of cheap pine is full of knots, very sappy, not dimensionally stable so probably a poor choice. There are very heavy types of wood that will not rot. Yellow wood glues (titebond II and similar) are very easy to work with, bond quickly, clean up easily, waterproof, and low toxicity but require well mated surfaces and heavy clamping pressure. Those are a few tips, nothing more. I am reluctant to give you more specific advice. Wood is a pleasure to work with compared to most boatbuilding materials but can be meticulous and there are many variables.

[rslifkin]

The key to wood lasting is keeping it dry. If it doesn't get wet, or more importantly, doesn't stay wet and it's a durable wood, it lasts quite well.

[Chotu]

Rob, I don’t know how to do any of this. It also sounds like it would be extremely loud to live with.

Thank you for the brainstorming idea but this one is too daunting. Any variation of it in more simple materials? I’m using the Formica a lot. As a skin. 8 lbs for a 4x8 sheet.

In fact, anything I’m trying to figure out is 20lbs for a 4x8 sheet of whatever, fully finished.

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Fast?

Stainless square steel tube riveted together to form frames and then skinned with more stainless. Welding the frames takes more time but it'll be stronger for things like bulkheads. I'd do it modular - make the frames as panels then install and connect together in situ. Rivet the skin and frames together like they do for aircraft. Light and strong.

It won't ever rot and doesn't require any finish although you can certainly paint it if you want to. A satin / brush finish can be achieved with a 3M pad and some elbow grease.

Don't want/like the look of an all metal interior? You can buy panels of PVC that's used to skin RV's and houseboats and use that instead of SS sheet. I believe that curves can be made with a heat gun and bending around a form if they're not compound. I'm not sure if the PVC is available in colors other than white.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The key to wood lasting is keeping it dry. If it doesn't get wet, or more importantly, doesn't stay wet and it's a durable wood, it lasts quite well.

And it seems humidity is not a factor in the longevity, right?

Just dripping water on it or even worse, submersion in freshwater?

I think I need the marine ply for the surfaces so it doesn’t twist and curve with varying humidity. But the frames seem like they’ll be good as long as they’re dry.

This comes back to ensuring windows are perfect, which is why I’m having a glazier come out this week to check on them and install them at his next availability. Tempered safety glass.

This is the only reason my interior has been through so much. The window problems.

Side windows at that. Forward and sternward windows are just fine. No drips.

On that untreated wood note, I also have a stack of Douglas fir in my tool room acting as the floor for now until I can put that one in.

Other than dirt on the top faces from walking on it thousands of times, it’s perfectly dry, no mold and no degradation at all. In fact it sort of looks dryer than when I bought it. A more faded out color. I don’t know why.

But any of that wood has held up extremely well, completely untreated.

Maybe I could just get it all up, then go back to paint cabinet interiors if it seems to be needed?

[rslifkin]

Humidity is of some concern, but mostly in terms of mold. So if you're not in conditions where mold will start growing all over the place, it's probably not an issue. Especially if you paint the wood where the surface is easier to clean.



As far as water exposure, an occasional drip won't hurt anything, especially if the wood is coated. But if it's getting wet frequently, then you're at risk for problems.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Humidity is of some concern, but mostly in terms of mold. So if you're not in conditions where mold will start growing all over the place, it's probably not an issue. Especially if you paint the wood where the surface is easier to clean.



As far as water exposure, an occasional drip won't hurt anything, especially if the wood is coated. But if it's getting wet frequently, then you're at risk for problems.

Ah, ok.

A different strategy then.

Is there a breathable finish that will be white and allow for easy detection and cleaning of mold (just in case) that would still allow the wood to breathe, shed moisture it pics up, etc?

I typically have dusty bilges in all my boats. I don’t tolerate leaks of any kind.

This boat no longer has any leaks (tarps until the glazier comes).

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Is there a breathable finish that will be white and allow for easy detection and cleaning of mold (just in case) that would still allow the wood to breathe, shed moisture it pics up, etc?

Maybe a water based paint? I'm not entirely sure what all of the materials are, but the cabinets on my boat are made of some kind of hardwood plywood. Insides are painted (with unknown paint), outsides are covered in vinyl or formica depending on which cabinet. I'm sure not every edge is sealed. Either way, they've held up for 35 years with no apparent degradation.



Think back to anything you remember about the cabinets on other boats you've had. Any general design features of them are likely at least a decent option if those cabinets held up well over time.

[Chotu]

Here are some pictures of untreated wood that’s been in the boat since 2014.

Just sitting in there.

I was googling breathable paint and it looks like that’s what 100% acrylic exterior house paint is. It breathes to let moisture escape.

The cabin some was protected with “spar varnish” from Home Depot

[Chotu]

And here is a cabin sole with “spar varnish” from Home Depot on it. After years of water pouring in on it from the window problems.

[Chotu]

Revisiting the temporary and incomplete things I had put up before, it was 5mm or 13/16 plywood I used to build some things out of. A box store plywood.

It warped a bit, rotted even encapsulated in epoxy and painted with 2 part linear polyurethane where the windows were leaking.

This plywood didn’t make for good seats. It was rickety, flexible and felt like it would break, even if it didn’t.

I’m thinking of getting 18lbs 1/4” (6mm) Okoume marine plywood for the interior build out of cabinetry and settee and berths. And doing stick frame, then painting with a high gloss white.

Is that a good?

It should weigh about 20lbs for a panel. Same as Formica/foam/Formica. It’s cheaper than foam by a long shot.

Then we have the matter of holding the frames together. Glue? Screw? Glue and screw?

That’s for cabinetry. Faces, shelving.

Then we have the shower. It’s got to be Formica so I can have it waterproof. Don’t need paint blistering up and wood rotting. Sealing every crack with silicone. This is for the top 1/2 of the shower compartment. The bottom 1/2 is just the hull itself I can stick Formica to.. Shower pan is glassed in already.

All exposed hull after the cabinetry is built will be covered with Formica. At 8lbs a sheet, it’ll weigh the same as filling with bog, sanding and painting. Cut to size, stick on the hull with contact cement and you have large completed areas very quickly.

Is this plan sound?

Any tips on a smooth, repeatable process for quickly getting the stick frames of the cabinetry up?

[rslifkin]

Screwed together cabinets should hold up fine and can be taken apart or modified later if needed. I wouldn't glue them together unless you determine it's necessary to make them stiff / strong enough.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Screwed together cabinets should hold up fine and can be taken apart or modified later if needed. I wouldn't glue them together unless you determine it's necessary to make them stiff / strong enough.

Ok. So a bit of trial and error to see if the screws will hold with the lightweight construction.