Rudder (Jefa roller) bearings advice-how much play?

[ohthetrees]

Hello everyone, I recently purchased a Hanse 505. First long passage (Hawaii to Seattle) went smoothly. Just hauled for the first time, and need some advice. I am not familiar with this roller bearing based rudder bearing system, and would like to know if mine is normal, or needs repair. The rudder turns very smoothly, and I have noticed no problems while in the water. In fact, it is the best rudder I've ever felt as far as smooth operation, even when loaded, and good feedback.

Most of the advice I see on the forums regards traditional solid non-roller bearings, so don't know how it applies to my situation. I've emailed Jefa, but don't know when/if they will reply, and the clock is ticking since my family of four is living on this boat in the yard, and we need to get going if this requires repair.


I find that I have a slight movement in my rudder. I have made videos and pictures to illustrate my questions.

Here is a video of the bottom of the rudder moving fore and aft. The rudder is a large 7' spade rudder. The movement is about 1.5mm at the very end of this very long lever arm.
https://youtu.be/dqpBNWS7cmk

Here is a video of the movement at the bottom bearing. The movement is too small to measure with my equipment.
https://youtu.be/jarni00UK5Y

Here is a video of the movement at the top bearing. The movement is too small to measure with my equipment.
https://youtu.be/kKmWH4od8xQ

Here is a video of the movement of two spacer rings at the bottom bearing. Are these supposed to be lose like this? Perhaps they just act as thrust washers?
https://youtu.be/xlAkG0c4PLc


Additionally I find there is a area with a crack around the bottom bearing. It appears there is some sort of fiberglass ring exposed. Would it be sufficient to grind back and then fair with thickened epoxy, or is this a serious problem? Please see pictures.

Finally, I find that water is running out of the bottom bearing area for 18 hours now. Please see pictures.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[TheOffice]

Contact PYI. https://www.pyiinc.com/

[Pitchondesign]

We have a Jeffa roller bearing. It is 100% tight with no play. Its a 6' spade rudder. I'm no expert, but that moving plastic video shows the lower bearing no longer attached to the boat. On my boat, the lower bearing is attached the recommended adhesive/sealant, and does not move. You will definitely need to drop the rudder to fix this. PYI are the go to guys, they have been very helpful in answering my issues.

[atoll]

bearings do not seem to be overly worn,and they will swell a bit once back in the water.
the crack you see is just the cut out where the outer casing tube is inserted through the hull,and should be fully glassed onto the hull on the inside of the boat,check for leaks or cracks there.
the spacer washers are just that,spacers so the rudder cannot ride up and bind with the hull.
paint ,put back in the water

[ohthetrees]

A small update. As atoll said, after carefully looking, and doing a little more internet sleuthing, I don't think the loose rings I can spin with my fingers are a problem. Those seem to just be spacers. The bearing itself doesn't move whatsoever relative to the hull. See attached video.

https://youtu.be/r9VTUVWci5s

I'm still going to contact PIY as some suggested, but I have confidence the lower bearing isn't moving relative to the boat.

My question now is, for these roller type bearings, how is play adjusted in the first place, from the factory? And how much play is allowed? I wonder if it is anything like a modern bicycle headset, seemingly a mechanically similar system with rotating shaft captured by upper and lower bearings in a tube. If so, then the adjustment is to apply upward tension on the shaft until play disappears.

If anyone is familiar with these roller bearings, I'd love to know.

[Pitchondesign]

I looked too quickly. Those spacers should spin and I don't think are a problem. The space you see is actually a cut out for inserting the roller bearing assembly, and is normal.

My bearing is not adjustable, it just needs to be the correct size. There is a gap between the bearing and hull which is probably what is letting water in, easily sealed.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

Hello everyone, I recently purchased a Hanse 505. First long passage (Hawaii to Seattle) went smoothly. Just hauled for the first time, and need some advice. I am not familiar with this roller bearing based rudder bearing system, and would like to know if mine is normal, or needs repair. The rudder turns very smoothly, and I have noticed no problems while in the water. In fact, it is the best rudder I've ever felt as far as smooth operation, even when loaded, and good feedback.

Most of the advice I see on the forums regards traditional solid non-roller bearings, so don't know how it applies to my situation. I've emailed Jefa, but don't know when/if they will reply, and the clock is ticking since my family of four is living on this boat in the yard, and we need to get going if this requires repair.


I find that I have a slight movement in my rudder. I have made videos and pictures to illustrate my questions.

Here is a video of the bottom of the rudder moving fore and aft. The rudder is a large 7' spade rudder. The movement is about 1.5mm at the very end of this very long lever arm.
https://youtu.be/dqpBNWS7cmk

Here is a video of the movement at the bottom bearing. The movement is too small to measure with my equipment.
https://youtu.be/jarni00UK5Y

Here is a video of the movement at the top bearing. The movement is too small to measure with my equipment.
https://youtu.be/kKmWH4od8xQ

Here is a video of the movement of two spacer rings at the bottom bearing. Are these supposed to be lose like this? Perhaps they just act as thrust washers?
https://youtu.be/xlAkG0c4PLc


Additionally I find there is a area with a crack around the bottom bearing. It appears there is some sort of fiberglass ring exposed. Would it be sufficient to grind back and then fair with thickened epoxy, or is this a serious problem? Please see pictures.

Finally, I find that water is running out of the bottom bearing area for 18 hours now. Please see pictures.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

In my opinion the small amount of play you see in the bottom bearing is probably tolerable but needs watching, athough I'd prefer it to be smooth with no play. Ask PYI about it.

Meanwhile, you can get a sense of it while in the water by sharply turning the wheel back and forth while watching the rudder head and listening for a thumping sound. Better, while sailing upwind in waves also watch the rudder head and listen for thumping in the bearing.

My solid bearings have similar play and I have struggled to get the clearance perfect to eliminate that play. I live with it but I am extremely attentive to the sounds while I am sailing upwind in bigger waves.

You other issues:

The visible cracks around the rudder tube which holds the bearing. This should be repaired. it is probably strong inside the boat but the cracks outside allow water into the laminate. I would grind it out and reglass it.

As you mentioned, the loose rings are not an issue, in my view.

Water coming out, however, needs to be looked into. Where is the water coming from? If it is (likely) from the hull lamination, then it got in through those cracks and should be corrected. A concern is that the area around the lower bearing may be weakened which could lead to a serious failure. Alternately, if it is only water which is simply draining from inside the rudder tube or from the bilge inside the boat, that is less of a concern but still needs to be examined.

[Paul L]

That looks like the Jeffa removable composite bearing. Drop the rudder. Then you turn the race upward, twist and remove. It is very easy to see if any of the rollers are broken or the race cracked. If so, it probably happened from a grounding, not from wear.

[ohthetrees]

wingssail, I think you summarize how I'm feeling about things at the moment, except for the water. Apparently these bearings are sea-water lubricated, and it is normal for sea water to work it's way past the bearings into the rudder tube, then leak out. The water is not coming from the crack, or the bilge, but appears to be coming through the bearing, which I think is OK.

I spoke to PYI, very impressive customer service considering I was a stranger to them.

Phil sent me some drawings of my steering system, which were helpful for helping me understand what is going on. I'll attach those for future forum users. He wasn't willing to make any pronouncements about the health and safety of my rudder stock and bearings, understandably. But reading between the lines, he seemed to think it wasn't a lot of play, though none would be better. He pointed out that for all I knew, it was like this from the factory.

I'm going to drop the rudder 1' (the most I can do without digging holes in very rocky ground, or paying for a travel lift to come lift me higher). If the rudder stock is in good shape (no wear or corrosion) I'm just going to put it back and call it good. I'll keep a close eye on it, and if the play gets worse, or I start to get symptoms ( knocking, binding, noise, etc) then I'll address it.

[ohthetrees]

Originally Posted by Paul L

That looks like the Jeffa removable composite bearing. Drop the rudder. Then you turn the race upward, twist and remove. It is very easy to see if any of the rollers are broken or the race cracked. If so, it probably happened from a grounding, not from wear.

Thanks for your input. Phil at PYI sent a link to this very illuminating gif that makes it very clear how the bearing is retained.

edit: looks like the forum changed the gif to a jpeg so the animation was lost. Here is the link to the page with the gif, so it can be seen animated.

https://jefa.dk/products/roller-bearings/6t000/

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

Thanks for your input. Phil at PYI sent a link to this very illuminating gif that makes it very clear how the bearing is retained.

edit: looks like the forum changed the gif to a jpeg so the animation was lost. Here is the link to the page with the gif, so it can be seen animated.

https://jefa.dk/products/roller-bearings/6t000/

I am totally impressed by this system, I've never before understood how they worked.

[atoll]

one thing you really want to check for,if you are able to drop the rudder by a foot or so is electrolysis of the aluminium rudder stock at the level of the waterline and below from stray electrical currents.
pitting ,deep crevices and white aluminium oxide buildup are signs of this.

[gjorgensen]

While not identical to the Beneteau 40.7 rudder bearing, it does look very similar to the Jeffa lower bearing that was no end of trouble when I owned one. For sure drop the rudder as far as possible and inspect. In the case of the 40.7 version, the rollers were carbon, race aluminum, and the collar on the rudder stock and screws were steel. Since it sits in the water that basically makes a battery and the assembly was very prone to corrosion and seizing up. Even packed in Lanncote they had a very limited life. Make sure to repack it all in Lanocote or similar when you reassemble.

[ohthetrees]

I’ll inspect the ridder post, hopefully tomorrow, and report back.

gjorgensen, i’m hoping I don’t have the problems of the Beneteau. This bearing system seems entirely composite, and is sea water lubricated (grease is prohibited) so I’m hoping not to have the dissimilar metal problems you had.

[nightowle]

CSR in Seattle is familiar with Jeffa rudders. They worked on mine a few years ago with bearing and post failure.