Edson Binnacle- Cables almost cut themselves

[zachduckworth]

I noticed something sort of sticky in the steering on my boat last weekend during a race I took part in on my new (to me) Islander Bahama 30. The boat has an Edson binnacle.

For some reason the boat seemed to not be responsive in light air, and would tend to continue turning when tacking, even when steered all the way to port or starboard. I discussed it after the race with some club members and we even inspected the steering cables and system from below. I crawled inside and didn't see anything that looked out of the ordinary. Of course, I've only been sailing a year and this is my first boat...

Later this week I was looking around at my battery box on another project. The battery box is next to the diesel tank. On top of the tank I saw some metal flakes that I had seen before, but hadn't put it together that they were directly below the pulleys that the steering cables ran through.



I immediately became worried that they were frayed, and tried pulling the wheel hard to port and starboard. I heard a very distinct but faint scraping sound when the wheel was hard to port, a similar but more faint sound when it was hard to starboard.

So then I was really concerned.

Today I took apart the Edson pedestal, which was a bear. I read online, and then discovered, that there are four large screws that hold the steering control collar on top of the pedestal. These screws, as I have learned, are notorious for seizing as they are stainless steel and passing through aluminum. They tend to corrode, and essentially weld to each other. I tried everything I could t get them free and ended up stripping two screws. I found a web post by a guy who ended up in the same position. He ended up cutting the heads off, which I also did, to get the pedestal off. Whereas he was able to use pipe wrench to get the broken screws out I was unable to do so despite using channel locks, a vice grip, and a torch.



This is really not well designed, IMHO. I'll now either have to buy a new pedestal ($2300-ish) or figure out a way to extract these screws from the aluminum, which will be a tough task.

Anyways, it was a good thing I did it.

When I pulled the chain-cable, I found out that the cable had worn through itself until only a few strands were holding it together:





I attached mouselines, so I can see how the cable was threaded. At the base of the pedestal there are two holes. One port, one starboard. The cables cross inside the pedestal, so that the cable attached to the starboard chain exits the base of the pedestal through the port hole, and cable attached to the port side of the chain exits the pedestal on the starboard side.

I also noticed a lot more metal shavings from the cable at the base of the pedestal by the two holes.


I initially thought that this must have been an error by a PO, and that the chains sawed through each other because they were crossed up. But according to someone on here who posted in another thread on Edson pedestals, this is actually how they're designed, and the crossing is what causes the boat to turn to port when you turn the wheel to port, and vice versa. The reason for this being that after exiting the hole at the base of the pedestal the cables pass through a pulley and then around a quadrant that is fitted over the rudder post. By being crossed they pull the quadrant in the correct directly to cause the rudder to turn the boat in the same direction as the wheel is turned. If they exited on the same side as the chain (and attached to the same side of the quadrant) the wheel would work more like a tiller.

So, when I first saw the crossed mouse lines I thought that maybe a PO put them in wrong, but that seems not to be the case. So I'm at a loss. Has anyone had this happen to them before? It is just age and lack of lubricant?

I have no idea how old the cable and chain are, but they are very dry. There is rust on both. Edson recommends changing both parts out every 5 to 7 years, and the boat is 37 years old (three years younger than me). The chain/cable is $400 if you buy it from Edson, about half that if you piece it together online. But then you have to buy a swage tool, and I don't know what I've I'd do with a swage tool... seems like it is almost worth while buying Edsons pretty overpriced replacement.

Buuut, I'm debating getting a new pedestal, and not an Edson. The frozen bolts really rubbed me the wrong way, and it's apparently a widely known weakness. Edson still makes what appears to me to be an identical product, which seems almost irresponsible given that this problem is well know. A total failure of your product, which has been around decades, should be fixed at some point. Or maybe the new versions of the classic have been changed. I don't know. Anyways, if I were to spend $2k on a new pedestal it probably will not be an Edson. I don't like the idea that the cables cross, because that seems like the most likely cause of this damage. But I stand to be corrected. That said, does anyone have any non-Edson recommendations for replacement pedestals/binnacles?

[floater88]

Just an idea but I would widen the holes in the top part that you removed to hold some c type of union nuts. Cut down the stainless bolts to good threads and attach the unions and more threaded rod from there thru the enlarged holes up to where you can bolt the whole thing down again. Just my one cents worth. Good luck

[catsketcher]

Gday Zach

I would not be very worried about the stainless being locked into the aluminium, and this being bad engineering. It is pretty standard for a boat of yours age. It really only shows the boat hasn't been super well maintained. You get these sort of problems with outboards that don't get their legs pulled regularly enough. Electrolysis occurs between the stainless fasteners (and you need to use stainless) and the cast alloy pedestal (Cast alloy is a fine choice).

The problem is the lack of a good insulating paste like Duralac (I use Lanolin myself). When you put the pedestal back together, liberally apply paste to the studs and you will be able to pull it apart in 5 years no worries.

If you can't remove the studs I would consider cutting them down to use as locating pins and redrilling and then tapping new threads in the pedestal. Or using a tapped sleeve and popping these over cut down studs and then you could bolt into the sleeves from up top.

But don't think that electrolysis siezing means the engineering is bad. If that was the case none of us could have outboards motors (stainless studs into alloy) winches and fittings on our mast and booms (alloy again) or toe rails and stanchions and heaps of other parts.

It is good you replaced the parts. I would replace the chain and wire and pop it together again with plenty of paste and be worry free.

cheers

Phil

[donradcliffe]

Welcome to boat ownership and maintenance.

Steering cables are made from 7/19 stainless cable and the eyes are put in the ends with cable clamps. The crossed cables should not rub against each other, and the rudder quadrant and turning blocks should line up so that the cables do not rub against the sides of the slots in the quadrants.

Removing stainless bolts and screws from aluminum requires patience. If you have broken the bolts, then next step is to try and drill them out. Sometimes it requires a helicoil insert to repair the damage. It is a reminder that you should ALWAYS use something like TefGel or Lanacoat on assembly.

[Bowdrie]

I can't give you a recommendation for a different make of pedestal, however, if the sheeves that are under the pedestal are positioned/adjusted properly the cables should be able to cross each other without rubbing, it only takes a very small angle for each cable, one that the chain/sprocket can easily cope with.
Edson made/makes about a billion different set-ups for sheeves and brackets, and what you have obviously went decades with probably little maintenance if at all.
Getting the studs/bolts out? that might have to get creative.
Helping on a friends boat with frozen bolts in aluminum, we took a battery and jumper cables and hooked one cable on the aluminum and touched the other cable to a bolt,
The stainless bolts turned red hot in short order, and they were able to be backed out when they cooled a bit.

[zachduckworth]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

I can't give you a recommendation for a different make of pedestal, however, if the sheeves that are under the pedestal are positioned/adjusted properly the cables should be able to cross each other without rubbing, it only takes a very small angle for each cable, one that the chain/sprocket can easily cope with.
Edson made/makes about a billion different set-ups for sheeves and brackets, and what you have obviously went decades with probably little maintenance if at all.
Getting the studs/bolts out? that might have to get creative.
Helping on a friends boat with frozen bolts in aluminum, we took a battery and jumper cables and hooked one cable on the aluminum and touched the other cable to a bolt,
The stainless bolts turned red hot in short order, and they were able to be backed out when they cooled a bit.

Huge pipe wrench coming tomorrow CO my buddy. Torch not working, may tey battery. Failing all that will have to drill it out..

[hpeer]

For bolt removal patience is a helpful tool. Soak in PB Blaster as long as you can. I would try heating bolts with a torch a few times. Hot then cold cycles while soaking with PB Blaster.

Heating with battery may not be so great on the battery and cause other issues. Try it if you must, but with caution.

As said above sheaves are not quite aligned correctly if wires are touching. May be a bitch to adjust, but you wiuld have to adjust in a new pedestal anyway.

[wholybee]

I am very familiar with this pedestal. First, good for catching it before it broke.

If you can't get the bolts out, the best thing to do is take it to a machine shop, and have them remove the bolts and insert some SS thread repair coils. Then those will be better than new. Use a proper lubricant (I prefer Tef-Gel) when putting it back together.

The routing of the cables is very difficult to get right. It isn't just that they cross. They have to cross such that they do not rub against each other or against the engine control cables. With some effort and straining with a flashlight down the pedestal, it can be done that nothing touches. One pully is slightly forward and the other slightly aft to allow them to not rub. Improper adjustment won't affect rubbing, as they can only turned, but can't be moved fore/aft. They need to be turned for a fair lead to the quadrant is all. Most likely, at some point it was taken apart and the chain twisted 360 degrees out, so it operated correctly but with the cables rubbing.

Take a close look at the idler assembly below, the plate that the pulleys attach to. For a while they were made of plain steel, and will rust and fall apart unexpectedly. Newer are thick aluminum. If yours is steel, check it very carefully and if you don't replace it now, expect to in the future.

New engine control cables are only about $30 at defender. It would be unwise to put it all back together without replacing them, as they are probably near failure also.

The needle bearings for the shaft are stainless, and also in an aluminum bore in the housing. Make sure they stay well greased, or you will get corrosion there. That was an expensive repair, having a machine shop bore the housing and install stainless sleeves, but that issues is never going to happen again.


Lastly, when my cables broke, I was 500 miles offshore. I repaired it with dyneema, by splicing the dyneema to the chain after cutting off the wire. I learned that dyneema is much cheaper than the wire, can be changed in a couple hours offshore if you know what you are doing, and is easy to carry. It will probably last longer too, but that is yet to be proven. My cable lasted 25,000 miles, and so far I have 10,000 on the dyneema.

Edson has very good tech support, and lots of very good videos on their YouTube channel.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Gday Zach

Electrolysis occurs between the stainless fasteners (and you need to use stainless) and the cast alloy pedestal (Cast alloy is a fine choice).

No. That is galvanic corrosion.

[zachduckworth]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I am very familiar with this pedestal. First, good for catching it before it broke.

If you can't get the bolts out, the best thing to do is take it to a machine shop, and have them remove the bolts and insert some SS thread repair coils. Then those will be better than new. Use a proper lubricant (I prefer Tef-Gel) when putting it back together.

The routing of the cables is very difficult to get right. It isn't just that they cross. They have to cross such that they do not rub against each other or against the engine control cables. With some effort and straining with a flashlight down the pedestal, it can be done that nothing touches. One pully is slightly forward and the other slightly aft to allow them to not rub. Improper adjustment won't affect rubbing, as they can only turned, but can't be moved fore/aft. They need to be turned for a fair lead to the quadrant is all. Most likely, at some point it was taken apart and the chain twisted 360 degrees out, so it operated correctly but with the cables rubbing.

Take a close look at the idler assembly below, the plate that the pulleys attach to. For a while they were made of plain steel, and will rust and fall apart unexpectedly. Newer are thick aluminum. If yours is steel, check it very carefully and if you don't replace it now, expect to in the future.

New engine control cables are only about $30 at defender. It would be unwise to put it all back together without replacing them, as they are probably near failure also.

The needle bearings for the shaft are stainless, and also in an aluminum bore in the housing. Make sure they stay well greased, or you will get corrosion there. That was an expensive repair, having a machine shop bore the housing and install stainless sleeves, but that issues is never going to happen again.


Lastly, when my cables broke, I was 500 miles offshore. I repaired it with dyneema, by splicing the dyneema to the chain after cutting off the wire. I learned that dyneema is much cheaper than the wire, can be changed in a couple hours offshore if you know what you are doing, and is easy to carry. It will probably last longer too, but that is yet to be proven. My cable lasted 25,000 miles, and so far I have 10,000 on the dyneema.

Edson has very good tech support, and lots of very good videos on their YouTube channel.

Funny you mention dyneema. I was thinking about that myself. It would definitely be cheaper…. like $370 cheaper. The chain looks ok tbh. Needs some grease though. But even if I had to buy it the chain isn't that expensive. Over $100 but definitely not $400. How’d you splice it? Eye splice over a thimble?

[Searles]

Secret ,don’t heat the stainless studs ,heat the alu body with a good heat gun ,not flame,alu expands about 5 times greater than stainless steel,heat the alu body and slowly work the studs back and forth,use heat gun only no flame ,this is not a design problem it’s a lack of understandings on assembly or on maintenance ,fixed this on many alu pedestals .⛵️⚓️

[Searles]

On the Edson pedistals most have s/s sleeves in the alu body for the shaft rollers to run on ,good grease is winch grease for this job.⛵️⚓️

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by zachduckworth

Funny you mention dyneema. I was thinking about that myself. It would definitely be cheaper…. like $370 cheaper. The chain looks ok tbh. Needs some grease though. But even if I had to buy it the chain isn't that expensive. Over $100 but definitely not $400. How’d you splice it? Eye splice over a thimble?

Yes, eye splice over a thimble on the chain end. Knot of your choice on the quadrant end, which couldn't be spliced at least on my boat. I used 2 turns and 2 half hitches. But for sure you will need to change your pulleys if you switch to dyneema, as the wear from having wire run through them will chafe the dyneema. I replaced those too, as my mounting plate was rusted and about to break. And not all dyneema is equal. The cheaper stuff is plenty strong enough, but you will need to adjust out the slack quite often as it creeps the first couple thousand miles.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Searles

On the Edson pedistals most have s/s sleeves in the alu body for the shaft rollers to run on ,good grease is winch grease for this job.⛵️⚓️

Mine did not, and according to Edson support, none of the 300 series do. They actually recommended against my doing it and tried to get me to buy a new 400 series pedestal. It's one of the improvements in the (expensive) 400 series.

The specified grease is "Superlube" but any good marine grease or winch grease should be fine. I used quicksilver marine grease.

[AKA-None]

As no one seems to have mentioned it in this thread

Use left hand drills if you are drilling to remove a bolt