Edson Binnacle- Cables almost cut themselves

[MJH]

Originally Posted by zachduckworth

I noticed something sort of sticky in the steering on my boat last weekend during a race I took part in on my new (to me) Islander Bahama 30. The boat has an Edson binnacle.

For some reason the boat seemed to not be responsive in light air, and would tend to continue turning when tacking, even when steered all the way to port or starboard. I discussed it after the race with some club members and we even inspected the steering cables and system from below. I crawled inside and didn't see anything that looked out of the ordinary. Of course, I've only been sailing a year and this is my first boat...

Later this week I was looking around at my battery box on another project. The battery box is next to the diesel tank. On top of the tank I saw some metal flakes that I had seen before, but hadn't put it together that they were directly below the pulleys that the steering cables ran through.



I immediately became worried that they were frayed, and tried pulling the wheel hard to port and starboard. I heard a very distinct but faint scraping sound when the wheel was hard to port, a similar but more faint sound when it was hard to starboard.

So then I was really concerned.

Today I took apart the Edson pedestal, which was a bear. I read online, and then discovered, that there are four large screws that hold the steering control collar on top of the pedestal. These screws, as I have learned, are notorious for seizing as they are stainless steel and passing through aluminum. They tend to corrode, and essentially weld to each other. I tried everything I could t get them free and ended up stripping two screws. I found a web post by a guy who ended up in the same position. He ended up cutting the heads off, which I also did, to get the pedestal off. Whereas he was able to use pipe wrench to get the broken screws out I was unable to do so despite using channel locks, a vice grip, and a torch.



This is really not well designed, IMHO. I'll now either have to buy a new pedestal ($2300-ish) or figure out a way to extract these screws from the aluminum, which will be a tough task.

Anyways, it was a good thing I did it.

When I pulled the chain-cable, I found out that the cable had worn through itself until only a few strands were holding it together:





I attached mouselines, so I can see how the cable was threaded. At the base of the pedestal there are two holes. One port, one starboard. The cables cross inside the pedestal, so that the cable attached to the starboard chain exits the base of the pedestal through the port hole, and cable attached to the port side of the chain exits the pedestal on the starboard side.

I also noticed a lot more metal shavings from the cable at the base of the pedestal by the two holes.


I initially thought that this must have been an error by a PO, and that the chains sawed through each other because they were crossed up. But according to someone on here who posted in another thread on Edson pedestals, this is actually how they're designed, and the crossing is what causes the boat to turn to port when you turn the wheel to port, and vice versa. The reason for this being that after exiting the hole at the base of the pedestal the cables pass through a pulley and then around a quadrant that is fitted over the rudder post. By being crossed they pull the quadrant in the correct directly to cause the rudder to turn the boat in the same direction as the wheel is turned. If they exited on the same side as the chain (and attached to the same side of the quadrant) the wheel would work more like a tiller.

So, when I first saw the crossed mouse lines I thought that maybe a PO put them in wrong, but that seems not to be the case. So I'm at a loss. Has anyone had this happen to them before? It is just age and lack of lubricant?

I have no idea how old the cable and chain are, but they are very dry. There is rust on both. Edson recommends changing both parts out every 5 to 7 years, and the boat is 37 years old (three years younger than me). The chain/cable is $400 if you buy it from Edson, about half that if you piece it together online. But then you have to buy a swage tool, and I don't know what I've I'd do with a swage tool... seems like it is almost worth while buying Edsons pretty overpriced replacement.

Buuut, I'm debating getting a new pedestal, and not an Edson. The frozen bolts really rubbed me the wrong way, and it's apparently a widely known weakness. Edson still makes what appears to me to be an identical product, which seems almost irresponsible given that this problem is well know. A total failure of your product, which has been around decades, should be fixed at some point. Or maybe the new versions of the classic have been changed. I don't know. Anyways, if I were to spend $2k on a new pedestal it probably will not be an Edson. I don't like the idea that the cables cross, because that seems like the most likely cause of this damage. But I stand to be corrected. That said, does anyone have any non-Edson recommendations for replacement pedestals/binnacles?

The wire are intended to cross but not touch...they were installed backwards. I have experienced changing steering control wires three times. Before operating them I inspected them from underneath the binnacle to see them touching each other, then reversing them to correct the alignment. Its an easy mistake to make just do a POST-INSTALL INSPECTION from UNDERNEATH the binnacle before operating the boat. The last to two installs were with a new Edson binnacle. I made a note in my log so the next time I know which side (port or starboard) goes first.

[Nicholson58]

This problem is common on Edson with tapped aluminum. If you are very good, drill out the screws. Use left hand drills and you might get lucky and have the remains come free. Retap. Use NeverSeize. Move the screws annually

[Icarus]

Broken SS screws frozen in alu usually can be removed by applying heat to the alu body, I used a good heat gun set at around 300°C or an open flame small LPG torch.
Worst case you might have to touch up the coating.
When reassembling use an antie seize product like Never Seize or similar.

As for crossing the steering cables
I cross mine at the quadrant, why would one cross them inside the pedestal where one can't see if they chafe?
I don't think there is a need to fork out 2k for a new pedestal.

[zachduckworth]

You’re correct- I’m going to a tiller!
And super stoked about it.
I did the bolts with a torch multiple times, not one budged. Ended up destroying all of them. Going to take it to a machine shop, get it re-threaded, repainted, and then sell it.

[KayZee]

Originally Posted by zachduckworth

Yes, upon second thought I’m going to get a new chain and keep old one as a back up.
I watched the Edson how to videos. Somewhat hilariously the one that discusses those screws says, “if you are having difficulty removing them contact Edson for advice.”

The video on the idler was useful. Today I’m going to try to remove the wheels to inspect them, and to see if I can remove the idler assembly easily (relative term). I may end up replacing thecidler with a new one, and the sheaves at the very least.

FWIW, when I had to contact Edson about the throttle control lever, they were phenomenally helpful about the whole issue and offered advice about overhauling the pedestal.


Kurt

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by zachduckworth

I noticed something sort of sticky in the steering on my boat last weekend during a race I took part in on my new (to me) Islander Bahama 30. The boat has an Edson binnacle.

For some reason the boat seemed to not be responsive in light air, and would tend to continue turning when tacking, even when steered all the way to port or starboard. I discussed it after the race with some club members and we even inspected the steering cables and system from below. I crawled inside and didn't see anything that looked out of the ordinary. Of course, I've only been sailing a year and this is my first boat...

Later this week I was looking around at my battery box on another project. The battery box is next to the diesel tank. On top of the tank I saw some metal flakes that I had seen before, but hadn't put it together that they were directly below the pulleys that the steering cables ran through.



I immediately became worried that they were frayed, and tried pulling the wheel hard to port and starboard. I heard a very distinct but faint scraping sound when the wheel was hard to port, a similar but more faint sound when it was hard to starboard.

So then I was really concerned.

Today I took apart the Edson pedestal, which was a bear. I read online, and then discovered, that there are four large screws that hold the steering control collar on top of the pedestal. These screws, as I have learned, are notorious for seizing as they are stainless steel and passing through aluminum. They tend to corrode, and essentially weld to each other. I tried everything I could t get them free and ended up stripping two screws. I found a web post by a guy who ended up in the same position. He ended up cutting the heads off, which I also did, to get the pedestal off. Whereas he was able to use pipe wrench to get the broken screws out I was unable to do so despite using channel locks, a vice grip, and a torch.



This is really not well designed, IMHO. I'll now either have to buy a new pedestal ($2300-ish) or figure out a way to extract these screws from the aluminum, which will be a tough task.

Anyways, it was a good thing I did it.

When I pulled the chain-cable, I found out that the cable had worn through itself until only a few strands were holding it together:





I attached mouselines, so I can see how the cable was threaded. At the base of the pedestal there are two holes. One port, one starboard. The cables cross inside the pedestal, so that the cable attached to the starboard chain exits the base of the pedestal through the port hole, and cable attached to the port side of the chain exits the pedestal on the starboard side.

I also noticed a lot more metal shavings from the cable at the base of the pedestal by the two holes.


I initially thought that this must have been an error by a PO, and that the chains sawed through each other because they were crossed up. But according to someone on here who posted in another thread on Edson pedestals, this is actually how they're designed, and the crossing is what causes the boat to turn to port when you turn the wheel to port, and vice versa. The reason for this being that after exiting the hole at the base of the pedestal the cables pass through a pulley and then around a quadrant that is fitted over the rudder post. By being crossed they pull the quadrant in the correct directly to cause the rudder to turn the boat in the same direction as the wheel is turned. If they exited on the same side as the chain (and attached to the same side of the quadrant) the wheel would work more like a tiller.

So, when I first saw the crossed mouse lines I thought that maybe a PO put them in wrong, but that seems not to be the case. So I'm at a loss. Has anyone had this happen to them before? It is just age and lack of lubricant?

I have no idea how old the cable and chain are, but they are very dry. There is rust on both. Edson recommends changing both parts out every 5 to 7 years, and the boat is 37 years old (three years younger than me). The chain/cable is $400 if you buy it from Edson, about half that if you piece it together online. But then you have to buy a swage tool, and I don't know what I've I'd do with a swage tool... seems like it is almost worth while buying Edsons pretty overpriced replacement.

Buuut, I'm debating getting a new pedestal, and not an Edson. The frozen bolts really rubbed me the wrong way, and it's apparently a widely known weakness. Edson still makes what appears to me to be an identical product, which seems almost irresponsible given that this problem is well know. A total failure of your product, which has been around decades, should be fixed at some point. Or maybe the new versions of the classic have been changed. I don't know. Anyways, if I were to spend $2k on a new pedestal it probably will not be an Edson. I don't like the idea that the cables cross, because that seems like the most likely cause of this damage. But I stand to be corrected. That said, does anyone have any non-Edson recommendations for replacement pedestals/binnacles?

Edson has been in business for 50 years or more.
That classic pedestal is still available new, and just last week I saw one on Craigslist.

Cables are replaceable and Edson still makes all the kit to service them.
Cable routing is paramount, and lubrication essential.

Your looks dry and chafed, rust is present.
IMHO, You missed the maintainance, being a new boat, there's no sin.

Alignment of the pulleys, cable routing will ensure a long lasting steering system.

Getting the SS bolts out of the Pedestal involves heat at the flange on the ped.
Don't melt it but get it very hot, and those vice grips will work, heat the flange, cool the bolt, repeat, the expansion, contraction of the flange and bolt will break the bond between them.
It's been done many times before, work the bolt, back and forth.

I see the cables both broke at the same spot?
That's a bit unusual, but looking at their position and that you have some accessories screwed, bolted to the ped it seems to have been rubbing on something about a foot down inside the pedestal.

Throttle cable, shift cable, interference?
It should be obvious where it's been rubbing.

There's no need for a swage tool, as the cables are swaged into the chain attachment pieces.
The other ends are open cable, and once installed need only cable clamps to secure them.
It's an easy fix in my estimate, and a lot less than a full pedestal.
If you fix it it will last 37 more years, IF YOU LUBRICATE IT.

Edson is one of the best Peds out there.
Hang in there.

Boatyarddog

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Broken SS screws frozen in alu usually can be removed by applying heat to the alu body, I used a good heat gun set at around 300°C or an open flame small LPG torch.
Worst case you might have to touch up the coating.
When reassembling use an antie seize product like Never Seize or similar.

As for crossing the steering cables
I cross mine at the quadrant, why would one cross them inside the pedestal where one can't see if they chafe?
I don't think there is a need to fork out 2k for a new pedestal.

+1
Cross under the floor, add pulleys if need to align better, and lubricate the wire, chain and all.
BYD

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Good catch finding this while still possible to get home.

Your local rigger can make up a new and spare chain-cable assembly. If the old chain is OK then use that for the spare. Grease everything including the bare cables.

My opinion, the cables should not touch. Figure how to move a pulley. At the very least, install a Nylatron rub sheet between the cables.

Be sure to lubricate the pins on those bronze wheels.

37 years on the chain and sprocket is a lot.
Remove the pedestal or rebuild it Compleatly.
The Ped. is the most robust part.
The parts are all available, on that model.
Boatyarddog

[harbin2]

I spent 3 winters trying to remove one of those bolts that hold the control housing on. The other three were hard to remove but did come out. I ended up twisting the last one off twice and then drilled it out. I saved the threads and replaced the bolt - used Tef-gel. I replaced the control cables and chain/wire. Had lots of good help from Edson videos and phone tech support. After assembly and inspection from below, I realized the cables were still rubbing and had to re-do the whole thing. Works perfectly now and I'm glad I did it all. The new control cables work great!