Wanted to throw out the topic of Hydro-diesel which gets high marks.

[mike mck]

Originally Posted by doog

In reply to "ItDepends"
Well we know the internal combustion engine wastes about 3/4 of the energy burned and water injection has been used in aircraft and other engines at varying levels with good returns in performance. Youre well aware of this and its not about 'adding' to the fuel but to the combustion cycle which is only 30 % efficient and a large part of the fuel function is cooling/lubricating, not burning. Not here to argue with someone defending an industry where we could easily have 50 to 100 MPG vehicles and already do, Aptera, VW Atom, Elio..and vastly more efficient engines have been proven and patented a decade ago but ...its about policy and politics, like our old Iraq invasion era when the auto makers were putting out the 10 MPG ford expedition as if to say here you go! And our policies were clear when there is the VW atom that gets 100 MPG, the elio and aptera car and a whole host of others all buried by the darling of our policy makers Tesla which is as environmentally fatal and ...Spoken like an industry professional!

My expedition get 17 mpg. Of course the no longer produced land yacht the excursion was 10mpg if lucky. I should mention it would pull a trailer weighing 20,000 lbs and seat 10 people comfortably which is what it was designed for. None of the "100 mpg" motors/cars were designed nor capable of that.
The VW xl-1 was capable of 280 miles per imperial gallon but good luck seating 3 comfortably and it was not capable of exceeding 75 MPH. Oh and cost! $150,000.00. There are trade offs. And lets not forget it still requires fossil fuels.
Seems the world has chosen to move to renewables and nuclear to produce electricity and electric cars and trucks. Now we need to proceed improving battery technology and get on with it.

[mike mck]

Originally Posted by doog

OK the patent, (thanks, PS its chinese) is from 95 and its not new, but the PRODUCT is new. I could post links and videos but most websites prohibit link sharing. Anyone can google the Youtube of hydrodiesel burning beautifully and see the engines running on this fuel offered by the licensees of this patent. My point was that fuel drier is the same stuff as the catalyst they use to blend this stuff and its not only not rocket science its an EZ bake recipe. I have a diesel heater that used to cost $4000 from Webasto and I paid $100 for it, and it works perhaps better than the original webasto and I need fuel.
Those of us who read know that Hitler made fuel during WWII and it can be made from anything organic with heat and catalysts, coal, bio-waste, garbage...Fisher-Tropsch process and steam reformation. ItDepends is well aware of this history and tech. South Africa made their own fuel through the apartheid years when nobody would sell to them and it costs about $2.50 per gallon.
Bucky Fuller pointed out that in the 60s we had technology that could have given us all we need in abundance but instead we have a world of critical scarcity. Amory Lovins, the same...A Road Not Taken. My final observation? I cant define obscenity but I know it when I see it! (and its a 10 MPG Navigator being marketed while we bury Iraqis in the sand with tanks to dominate the oil nations, while in Japan the Prius is being built) I wont bring up 911 and the issues related.
If it would work they would do it? No, thats exactly why they dont do it! If it works the golden goose would get away, And with that I will leave it to anyone who likes to research the history and technology which is all in our hands. And as long as its in 'industry' hands, industry who are in partnership with policy makers, All of the millionaires, we will have the world that we do where we are told inflation is around 8% when everything we buy has gone up about 30%.

I hear and agree with much of what you are saying but would like you to consider this. Obscenity a 10 mpg Navigator (17mpg) by the way while Japan is producing the prius. You have to know they were designed to do far different things. The prius cannot pull a 12,000 lb camping trailer to take a family of 6 cross country on vacation or even take 6 car poolers to work comfortably.
Vehicles are designed for specific tasks and comparing a large suv designed for towing and cargo capacity to a local comuter designed for fuel efficiency is a flawed comparison.

[capn_billl]

I'm with ItDepends, there is a long history of snake oil in the auto industry, and water doesn't burn.

Steam does have a high expansion coefficient, and a small quantity can lower knock, and slow the burn to boost efficiency.

The trick is how to do that without causing other problems, including changing timing that was adjusted for pure diesel.

[Colin Stone]

I'm using a "Hydro diesel" in my vessel.
HVO 100 - Hydrogen treated vegetable oil made by Neste.
I buy it in Belgium.
https://www.neste.be/en/neste-my-renewable-diesel-be
Go round smelling like a chip shop. But much cleaner, reduced smoke and smoother running. And 15 tank life. 1000 litres white diesel was €3000 in May, but I can't take it with me.

[tamicatana]

I got as far as 'water plus oil makes biodiesel' and tl;dr:

That is not the way biodiesel is made. Here is the formula for transesterification. Bold mine. FTA link below:

"Methanol and base (NaOH in this case) is combined. NaOH Separates into ions in methanol. The -OH reacts with the H of methanol to make H2O, leaving the -OCH3 to react with the fatty acid. Both should be as dry as possible. Water production increases the side reaction of soap formation which is unwanted."

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/egee.../files/CH2.png

And here is a primer:
https://biodieseleducation.org/Educa...choolLab01.pdf

[RaymondR]

My recollection of jet engines using water injection at take off was that they spewed out a smoke trail to rival the dirtiest of diesels.

Did the extra thrust achieved come from the increase in mass of the jet stream or an increase of pressure resulting from the vaporization of the water?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

My recollection of jet engines using water injection at take off was that they spewed out a smoke trail to rival the dirtiest of diesels.

Did the extra thrust achieved come from the increase in mass of the jet stream or an increase of pressure resulting from the vaporization of the water?

I think at least some part of the extra thrust came from the cooling effect of the water. They could inject and burn more fuel before turbine temperature became limiting. I'd expect the increased mass flow from the water helped a little bit too, but I don't think that was the primary concern. Temperature issues are why water injection disappeared as materials and jet engine design improved, allowing higher turbine temp limits.

[Harmen]

Originally Posted by Madehn

This thread with its conspiracy theories mixed with some factual posts mixed in with some just plain junk posts reminds me why I am so glad the boat has an anchor that I can pull up and leave the area before the black helicopters arrive. Really looking forward to a report from the first person who gets some catalyst, adds water to their diesel fuel and goes on voyage. Please let know how that works out for you. best of luck

Wow.... it appears that inflation has not affected the price of tinfoil hats...Bargain sale today, haha

[Rumrace]

I plead stupid on the topic. I thought they were using water to infuse hydrogen into diesel. which should extend its Milage but not power if it acts like gas.
I don’t think anyone is dumb enough to mix oil with water. If they do there will be a country song about it.

[Baby tug]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

From a chemical engineer who is very familiar with fuel and fuel blends. I am going to tell you something you do not want to hear.

There is NO WAY that adding water to diesel fuel (or gasoline) adds ANYTHING to the energy output. It can only DECREASE it--a LOT. This is totally bogus and a complete ripoff.

Think about this for just ONE second. If adding water to diesel made it burn better and give more energy per gallon don't you think Exxon would have done it a LONG time ago?

"Hydro-Diesel" is a scam front, back, center, and every which way.

Of course you can believe whatever you want, but SOMEBODY is laughing AT you (not with you) all the way to the bank.

You be surprised at how many people bought into that hydrogen generator gimmick they were pushing for a while there’s all kinds of snake oil salesman

[Rumrace]

I thought it was
The process uses catalysts such as sodium or potassium hydroxide to convert the vegetable oil and Blah blah blah

Then I read 30% water which I hope is a code word for some other than water. Don’t know about diesel but that would snap a 454’s crank shaft, right between front 4 barrels and the back 4.

Could it be used in a turbine ?

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by doog

In reply to "ItDepends"
Well we know the internal combustion engine wastes about 3/4 of the energy burned and water injection has been used in aircraft and other engines at varying levels with good returns in performance. Youre well aware of this and its not about 'adding' to the fuel but to the combustion cycle which is only 30 % efficient and a large part of the fuel function is cooling/lubricating, not burning. Not here to argue with someone defending an industry where we could easily have 50 to 100 MPG vehicles and already do, Aptera, VW Atom, Elio..and vastly more efficient engines have been proven and patented a decade ago but ...its about policy and politics, like our old Iraq invasion era when the auto makers were putting out the 10 MPG ford expedition as if to say here you go! And our policies were clear when there is the VW atom that gets 100 MPG, the elio and aptera car and a whole host of others all buried by the darling of our policy makers Tesla which is as environmentally fatal and ...Spoken like an industry professional!

Water injection has nothing to do with mixing water and diesel to make it better!

Water injection is used to cool the intake air in order to do 2 things although primary function these days is to reduce NOX emissions - it does this by cooling the intake and when setup it only works at one load normally set at full power, at all other loads it’s worse, but hey it can get around emissions regulations in some parts. Generally a use of water in the fuel, much like every other emission saving device actually requires you to burn more fuel in the first place. If that’s a good thing or not I am not convinced, but again you have to get on board with the emissions legislation.
Oh and to the second point, if you have a cooler intake you can put more fuel in and burn more to get more power. Although I am not aware of anyone actually doing this as there are 100s of better ways of getting more power.

I reviewed the test & operation documentation recently for such a system, being installed on land, and while the details were not shared fully my biggest concern was for the lack of protection of the engine in the event of a water injection system failure.