Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[Cavalier MK2]

You do need length to carry load, mid 30' you are starting to get enough for reasonable hops. Jim Brown felt the 31 was too small for 4 on long crossings with his own family. The Nicol has a fairly beamy main hull but is more fun light. I tell people we can day sail a dozen. Coastal cruise 4 and long haul 2-3 with the gear and supplies to be comfortable and fun. Those numbers can be added to but then you are cutting into the fun.

[Redreuben]

I think Randy nailed it, a water maker would potentially be your biggest weight and storage saver, if it can be sensibly sized and powered. I have no experience with them. What say others ? Growing sprouts is easy and delicious.

[Cavalier MK2]

I think 2 manual versions hooked up to a leg press would be great fun! The inboard is just too much weight plus it would kill the quarter cabin bunk and passage to the head.

[Buzzman]

It might be pertinent at this juncture to point out that David Lewis, the first to circumnavigate a multihull in the modern era (Rehu Moana, 1963-64), used only a longshaft British Seagull outboard for propulsion.
Doesn't get much lighter than a Seagull..!!

[owly]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

I took my KISS page from Dick Newick and skipped the modern inconveniences. No refrigeration, complicated head, pressure water, water heater,. Hand held electronics only. Skip everything else that boat shows tell people to get. This does let us bring some extra personal items. I like the watermaker idea but want to hook up the manual version so people exercise, flab uses payload.

I've been thinking a great deal about manual watermakers for the same reason. Watermakers are simple.... or can be. The trick would be to utilize some other manual system to drive the water maker. The simplest of course would involve a small pressure washer pump, and parts of your folding bicycle...... oops, I forgot to include that in my weight. You need a prefilter, and your RO filter, and a valve setup that will allow you to backflush. What would be even neater, would be to have a rowing system like the "Oar Board" in your plywood dinghy. This is a system that allows you to use your arms and legs like a sliding seat system system in a rowing shell, except the seat doesn't slide, instead the foot pads and oarlocks slide. Imagine pulling out the rowing system, bolting it to the Aframes, and rowing away pumping high pressure water for the water maker and a good workout! You want a fresh water shower......row a gallon or two of water. Watermakers run on around 1000 psi..... 800 I think. Horsepower = (gallons per minute * presssure )/1710. So assuming an hour to make 4 gallons of water, that's .066 gallons per minute, times 800 PSI = 52.8, divided by 1710 = .03 horsepower. An average person can maintain 1/10 horsepower for a long period of time. That tells me that you should be able to run about 12 gallons through the system in one hour......... in theory. What on earth are you going to do with 24 gallons of water a day on a boat with two people? Perhaps we need to look at human powered refrigeration .... let's see 4.2 BTUs per minute equals about 1/10 HP. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...lies/smile.gif ........... gotta get your exercise somehow. How fast will a searunner 31 travel through the ocean on 1/10 horsepower? Harnessing "manpower" when you have several idle humans aboard, just makes sense. H.W. H.W.

[Redreuben]

Surely the easiest way to multitask manpower is to store it in a battery as amphours no ?
Otherwise you are creating to many devices ?
Although,
Say you have stationary bicycle as the key generator you could perhaps switch the drive belt on to alternative pulleys next to each other like a cluster for each different device, generator, fridge compressor, water maker, hmm, amp hours are easier !

[Cavalier MK2]

Tied into solar and wind generators that should cover the bases Red. Lots of math to do on weight/performance issues as well as cost. The big benefit of whatever system you don't bring like the fridge is a set of spare parts and maintenance that can stay home. I'm sure you could rig up the folding bike for this one or perhaps you want pedal drive for those r2ak excursions so maybe a shaft clutch and pulley off that unit. The real danger is avoiding all the possibilities that add up into getting a bigger battery!

[owly]

Originally Posted by Redreuben

Surely the easiest way to multitask manpower is to store it in a battery as amphours no ?
Otherwise you are creating to many devices ?
Although,
Say you have stationary bicycle as the key generator you could perhaps switch the drive belt on to alternative pulleys next to each other like a cluster for each different device, generator, fridge compressor, water maker, hmm, amp hours are easier !

My comment about running a refrigeration compressor from a bicycle was not meant to be taken seriously. The only practical refrigeration for a boat is 12 or 24 volt hermetically sealed units. Interestingly a typical compressor for a boat draws about 80 watts, which is almost exactly 1/10 horsepower. The original idea is to keep weight down. Ice is about 7 times more efficient than a battery as far as storing energy pound for pound. Watts put into making ice, or fresh water, mean less battery weight needed, and batteries are HEAVY. The life expectancy of batteries is directly tied to the total amp hours in and out of the battery. Every amp hour you put in and retrieve reduces battery life and capacity by a pretty much fixed amount. That means that any way you can use energy directly without putting it into the battery is money in the bank, as well as reducing the need for battery capacity. I advocate a small freezer freezing water when you have solar, wind...... The ice then transferred to an ice box. This eliminates the need for a thermostatically controlled battery operated system that mindlessly cycles on and off without regard to the situation. The trimaran is the about the ideal platform for solar as boats go, with it's huge footprint for a relatively small load capacity. H.W.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by owly

In looking at the Searunner specifications, the "payload" specifications are a bit disturbing. The three that are in my "target zone", the 31, 34, and 37, range from 1500 lbs up to 2500 lbs payload. I'm not sure what all is included in "payload" even after reading Jim's books, The case for the cruising trimaran, and Searunner Trimarans. Presumably it includes crew and gear, water, fuel, food.... Loaded for a passage with a crew of 2, it would be very difficult to keep within the 1500 lb figure. 30 days minimal water for a crew of 2 (1/2 gallon per day per person) comes in at 252 lbs, or a full 1/6th of the total payload. 400 pounds of flesh and blood, and you are up to nearly half the payload......... everything else, food, gear, etc, must fit within an 848 pound limit. While 30 days is probably longer than most passages would take, it would be foolish doing an ocean crossing with less in my opinion. Bitter experience has taught me not to depend on the environment to provide, but to regard it as a "gift" when it does. Chances are you will see rain on a passage, and should be able to collect it. A gutter system is a no brainer, but banking on it is another thing. Likewise, one may catch fish......... or may not, and you may or may not have problems with mechanical systems....... spares are a must. Cruising has been described as fixing your boat in exotic places..... Taken altogether, it makes 1500 lbs a virtually impossible target. That means over loading, losing speed, reduced safety margin, etc. The crew of 1-4 would apply to coastal sailing only.....2 would be a maximum for a long passage. The 37 offers another 1000 lbs payload. Enough to set out on a laid back circumnavigation with a crew of 2 some spares, etc, but it's very easy to go through 1000 lbs........ Tools and spares would eat up a lot of that pretty quickly. I'm reminded of back packing large portions of the Pacific Crest Trail in the early 70's, and packing for 7-10 days, trying to carry adequate food, stove, fuel, water, tent, sleeping bag, etc, and keep the pack weight down to around 30 lbs....... I carried the tent, but still always had the lightest pack. I learned what foods were extremely light, filling and nutritious. Never bought fancy freeze dried meals, everything came from Safeway. The longest trek between food drops was 11 days........... But in those days you could drink the water in the mountains. I'm not interested in living like a backpacker on passages. Cravings taught us a lot about nutrition, and on those long treks we ran our resources down. The longest was 21 days with two food drops. We knew by then to include the things we would be craving, in the food drops........ heavy things, and to pig out, consuming those things like gluttons before continuing up the trail, so we wouldn't have to carry them. At sea, some fresh growing lettuces, chives, etc, and sprouts, would make a big difference. That dorado or tuna would be a gift from the Gods. I can only assume that those who are sailing trimarans on long passages are virtually all overloaded................ H.W.

I've never quite been able to figure out the numbers given for Searunner loadouts. Since with my 31', when fitted with basic sails, minimal ground tackle, a few duffles full of gear, & at most a month's worth of food, her main hull transom would be slightly immersed. And from some of the videos I've seen of Scrimshaw, Jim Brown built an extension onto her to assist with this/her sailing qualites. Or so I'm assuming. And it seems like the boats are meant to be loaded so that the transoms are immersed, this even without crew in the stern castle. Which to me doesn't make a lot of sense. Thoughts?

And, yeah, a couple of people lounging at the dinette table tended to turn the ass end of the main hull into a submarine. YUCK! Let alone if I had even an abridged library stored back there.
Great designs for their day, but some things about them leave me wondering.

owly I'm curious what you carried in terms of food? Specifically, what items & types of things, & in what quantities for say a 10 day trip. Also, what kinds of stuff did you wind up craving (other than ice cream), including the stuff which you had dropped for resupply?
That & how in the bleep did you manage to keep your pack weight south of 30lbs when packing for a trip that long? Yes, I know that I carry more gear than is truly necessary. But my pack hasn't been that svelte since I was about 14. When Dad & our Rottweiler carried the heavy stuff, including food.

Back to the food drop question. Back in the day, when refrigeration was rare, after long deliveries & passages, we typically craved ice cream (fresh dairy), & fresh greens. As the green stuff was usually gone or gone bad by about day 10+/-, depending on the weather, & the type of produce.
And my apoligies for going OT, but does anyone have any tips on extending this length of time on green veggies? Aside from sprouting that is.

[rossad]

Ok these scenarios are big variables meaning. If you have a 31 or a 34 37 or 40 or 44 Searunner or similar tri there really is a big variable in how to set up the configuration. Trimarans don't like weight we all agree on that. So what is for one person may not fit another. BUT! smaller tris have less options. On my 37 Searunner i dont have problems simply because its set up with a light wind gen 2 solar panels and 2 good house batteries.
I bought the boat 10 years ago and the fridge has been running almost half that time and it is still going strong. touch wood!
So the answer for the trimaran like Searunners is to use modern technology saving weight where you choose to. like newer inboards or outboards which are much lighter and generate more power and create more imput for batteries. Refrigeration is very light now. Everything becomes lighter except water.
When crossing oceans i believe you need to carry water for a month to survive. Just in case something happens. Surplus water is different while crossing oceans. A water maker of any sort can malfunction so the back up is to carry the emergency water. The best way to carry is in smaller plastic containers like 2 litres.
In a harsh environment — it's snowing, say — you have 3 hours to survive without shelter. After 3 days, you need water or you'll perish. You can make it 3 or 4 weeks without food, some people have survived 8 to 10 days without water but it depends on many factors. Meaning if you got to have emergency water. Right up to your destination. The amount for one month per person in my books is 24 litres or 12x 2 litre containers stashed some place. 1 Gallon [Fluid, US] = 3.7854118 Liters
The crew on an ocean passage must all have this amount supplied onboard. If you cannot do that you have less crew. You as the captain must take responsibility for everyone on board.
If you are talking about day sails or weekend sails or coastal trips and have 3 sources of contact on board then really it doesn't matter. You just look stupid when somebody comes to your aid.

[owly]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I've never quite been able to figure out the numbers given for Searunner loadouts. Since with my 31', when fitted with basic sails, minimal ground tackle, a few duffles full of gear, & at most a month's worth of food, her main hull transom would be slightly immersed. And from some of the videos I've seen of Scrimshaw, Jim Brown built an extension onto her to assist with this/her sailing qualites. Or so I'm assuming. And it seems like the boats are meant to be loaded so that the transoms are immersed, this even without crew in the stern castle. Which to me doesn't make a lot of sense. Thoughts?

And, yeah, a couple of people lounging at the dinette table tended to turn the ass end of the main hull into a submarine. YUCK! Let alone if I had even an abridged library stored back there.
Great designs for their day, but some things about them leave me wondering.

owly I'm curious what you carried in terms of food? Specifically, what items & types of things, & in what quantities for say a 10 day trip. Also, what kinds of stuff did you wind up craving (other than ice cream), including the stuff which you had dropped for resupply?
That & how in the bleep did you manage to keep your pack weight south of 30lbs when packing for a trip that long? Yes, I know that I carry more gear than is truly necessary. But my pack hasn't been that svelte since I was about 14. When Dad & our Rottweiler carried the heavy stuff, including food.

Back to the food drop question. Back in the day, when refrigeration was rare, after long deliveries & passages, we typically craved ice cream (fresh dairy), & fresh greens. As the green stuff was usually gone or gone bad by about day 10+/-, depending on the weather, & the type of produce.
And my apoligies for going OT, but does anyone have any tips on extending this length of time on green veggies? Aside from sprouting that is.

We carried things you could buy at Safeway. There were and are countless convenience products involving things like rice or noodles, with packets of seasonings, sauces, dried veggies, etc. We looked for things to "enhance" these kinds of meals, and though we shopped for supplies individually, we tried to each carry a small can or two of some sort of meat, the tradition being that we would do meals individually but in a way that would on occasion allow us to open one and share it out between us, each person incorporating it in his individual meal. I'm talking about dinner of course. Breakfasts for me usually involved cooking an egg in my Sierra cup....... the old bimetal style that was an amazing product, as well as doing a couple of packets of instant oatmeal with raisins or dried apples, etc added..... it was pretty spartan. Lunches varied a lot, and we all went our own way. I foraged more than anybody else. I had a passion for wild edibles, and was very adept at knocking down the "fool hen" (Franklin Grouse), with my slingshot..... the only weapon I ever carried, and I didn't turn up my nose at that 6" trout. We also carried things like granola, dried fruit, and jerky or pepper sticks. The evening meal was where we brought ourselves up to the necessary nutritional level. A quick meal supposedly for 4 people was about enough for one in that high energy environment. Most people never learn this, as they hike 3 miles instead of 50 or 100, or 250. I well remember one trip where my best friend and I took two other friends.... Boy Scouts, on a 90 mile trip. We made the mistake of not paying attention to what food they carried, and we all paid the price. We had to support them by supplementing their rations from our own. Everybody was "starving" as a result. I took my foraging to "the next level" as a result. My buddys and I very seldom "clustered", often spreading out over a mile or more. If you are chattering, you never see anything, and we left these two guys isolated, which they did not understand. He would "burn ahead" leaving them behind half a mile, and I'd drop back and "pull drag", as we always did. It made them very uncomfortable, but put the two of us in our best mode....... alone in the wilderness. The four of us ate about 300 crayfish one evening. I caught more fish, foraged more flora, and killed more fauna than I ever had before. My buddy was not a forager, and these two scouts were definitely NOT outdoors men. They were squeamish about blood and guts, and about eating the flora, I brought to "the table". They wouldn't have lasted a week in a survival situation! We craved red meat, ice cream of course, salads smothered in ranch dressing, fresh fruit, anything oily or greasy. The two of us who always went together, regardless of weather our "third" could come or not......... he had "sports obligations", developed rich tangy savory oily sauces, to our individual tastes, which could be carried without spoiling,and went a long way toward satisfying cravings. A small squeeze bottle would go a long way. I'm talking of many many years ago, and the one friend is long dead... my closest friend, and the other, an important naturalist with a big and well deserved reputation. I'm probably better suited to long distance voyaging than most folks. I live in a very remote area, and shop only about once every 3-4 weeks. I couldn't live without Costco. My mother, who lives in the city, just can't comprehend buying things in 5 or 10 pound quantities, eggs by the flat (5 dozen). Her fridge has a quart of milk, and half a dozen eggs. Mine has 2-3 gallons of milk, 5 or more dozen eggs, and numerous other things. My freezer has 4 pounds of butter, half a dozen cans of frozen concentrate grapefruit juice, an incredible amount of meat, frozen bread. When I see a sale on beef, pork, chicken, ham, it's not uncommon for me to buy ALL of it. I wouldn't make a good Mormon........ I don't have supplies for a year, but I could weather 2 or 3 months without "turning a hair". H.W.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Thanks guys. Little that I don't already practice, & have since I was a kid. And, yeah, the "serving sizes" on those freeze dried meals is laughable.

[Cavalier MK2]

Actually Owly's mum is the one you want loading a small tri. Unlike a mono you should load just for the passage with some extra for safety. A bigger boat can be stocked for longer but the beefy monos are the ones where you can store for a year onboard.

[Redreuben]

Owly;
Thanks for the posts, fascinating stuff. I knew about the energy density of water from studying sustainability but never saw it applied to the yacht, good one.
I assume your battery figures are for conventional lead acids, but even if you did use lithiums the sums would still be favourable. Interesting possibilities thanks.

[Redreuben]

Supplementary question.
Owly, are you suggesting making ice separately from the main cooler ? Like in a superinsulated box ?
And then transferring it to a cooler.
I would think that running a freezer is a lot of resources but purely making ice is good energy storage.