The Evolution of "Condomarans"

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by iliohale

Everything is a compromise and we may ultimately make a choice to give up some performance for comfort. I am just hopeful that we can have our cake and eat it too without needing to speed a zillion dollars for a Gunboat 66.

Hi Gary - I think you'll succeed in finding a very comfy cruising cat that sails way better than the average cruising cat. It'll just cost you more money.

Exactly what is included in your definition of "comfort" that you may have to compromise on?

I'll predict you will not find better physical comfort on a typical condo cat vs a more performance oriented cruising cat for similar conditions. The performance cat may be a bit more bouncy at higher speeds, however, due to it's lighter weight. Generally, the faster you go, the less comfortable you will be. (And, don't get fooled by videos of high speed cats sailing in flat, protected water. It's not like that offshore.) But consider this: My mast is 70.5 feet off the water which is within inches of the mast height on a Lagoon 440. But my carbon mast weighs a lot less and is on hulls about 3 feet longer. Which boat do you think pitches more?

However, you will likely find that the performance oriented cats will have less interior volume than a similar length condo cat. This is because the bridgedeck on condo cats is typically built out more to the ends; performance oriented cats typically have longer bows and sterns. I have a good friend with a Lagoon 421 that has quite a bit more interior volume than my Catana 471. But he's not more "comfortable".

Bottom line - I don't think you'll give up any comfort choosing a performance oriented cat and you may have greater physical comfort, depending on your definition of comfort. You'll just have to get a longer performance cat to get interior volume compared to a similar length condo cat. And you'll have to spend more money for those boards and other hardware, etc. typically present on the more sporty boats.

Dave

[D&D]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Hi Gary - I think you'll succeed in finding a very comfy cruising cat that sails way better than the average cruising cat. It'll just cost you more money.

Exactly what is included in your definition of "comfort" that you may have to compromise on?

I'll predict you will not find better physical comfort on a typical condo cat vs a more performance oriented cruising cat for similar conditions. The performance cat may be a bit more bouncy at higher speeds, however, due to it's lighter weight. Generally, the faster you go, the less comfortable you will be. (And, don't get fooled by videos of high speed cats sailing in flat, protected water. It's not like that offshore.) But consider this: My mast is 70.5 feet off the water which is within inches of the mast height on a Lagoon 440. But my carbon mast weighs a lot less and is on hulls about 3 feet longer. Which boat do you think pitches more?

However, you will likely find that the performance oriented cats will have less interior volume than a similar length condo cat. This is because the bridgedeck on condo cats is typically built out more to the ends; performance oriented cats typically have longer bows and sterns. I have a good friend with a Lagoon 421 that has quite a bit more interior volume than my Catana 471. But he's not more "comfortable".

Bottom line - I don't think you'll give up any comfort choosing a performance oriented cat and you may have greater physical comfort, depending on your definition of comfort. You'll just have to get a longer performance cat to get interior volume compared to a similar length condo cat. And you'll have to spend more money for those boards and other hardware, etc. typically present on the more sporty boats.

Dave

Very well said Dave ...

We seem to recall a trueism from our days as vessel buyers to the effect that, amoung 3 factors viz. performance, comfort & cost, you can only really 'win' on 2 out of 3...?

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Blackduck

Absolute newbie here: about to set off on the adventure (house on market, life on ebay, broker in the wings). I wonder why you wouldn't want a full size fridge/freezer in a catamaran? Why would there be a preference for bending under a bench when you could simply swing open a door and reach in? The absolute majority of weight in an upright fridge - even fully loaded) is down low so it wouldn't take too much to anchor it safely and securely despite its appearance. All I read is that 98% of cruising is at anchor or mooring/pontoon; so surely luxury and comfort are desired. Not directly related solely to the Bali but... Why are those thin foam matresses the standard fitting when inner spring seems to make more sense. Why the little "office" in Owners versions when a decent size bathroom would be more useful. Why are there no "heads" up top in the salon where gravity feed to the holding tank would seem more sensible? And on that... Why does the term 'toilet' attract such derision when a "head' is a throw back to times long gone when ablutions were literally done over the "head" of the ship (as in near the figurehead on the bow). Anyway...back to the Bali...
I went aboard the vessel in question at the Sydney Boat Show and was impressed (again I am a newbie looking for the cruising life: not so much a "sailor" as a potential global traveler). The challenge for me has been finding unadorned critiques - as opposed to simple criticisms: the sales people spruik their boats and condemn the competition (as you would expect). Cheers

Try any of those land based moves in even a mild sea state.

You'll quickly understand why boats, that get sailed anywhere wind can produce waves, are built the way they are.

I couldnt disagree more about the height of the center of gravity of a land fridge, especially with the door open. Not to mention the fact they were never designed to be installed in something that moves.

However cats can typically carry a lot more solar than monos which makes powering inefficient land based equipment doable.

Couple that with the charter preference for a condo like layout then its obvious why condomarans exist. When bought by couples it's because one of the pair will only go cruising if they dont have to do all that cruising bending, kneeling, crawling and reaching you mention.

Compare a condomaran to our mono Liberty 458 (46'), which sails better, is much more seaworthy and is more comfortable in any interesting sea state. The tradeoff is our cockpit is only comfortable for two. You'll never have a fun party with 4 couples on our boat. On a condomaran the party need never stop.

I've even had to custom build a washer dryer because we cant even fit one of those silly RV units. We do have 110 lockers so no shortage of space onboard.

We can only carry 720W of solar and some of that is shaded at any time. We run everything from 12V, which is much more efficient than ac to dc conversion, which precludes having any land type appliance onboard. We both live and work aboard.

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[D&D]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Compare a condomaran to our mono Liberty 458 (46'), which sails better, is much more seaworthy and is more comfortable in any interesting sea state.

Those views, along with the "it's because" reason people buy cruising cats,
are matters of opinion...and considerable(!) debate.

[smj]

Originally Posted by D&D

Those views, along with the "it's because" reason people buy cruising cats,
are matters of opinion...and considerable(!) debate.

I agree. The Liberty is a fine boat but the motion of a boat like that is what drove me to catamarans, condo or not.


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[Factor]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

our mono is much more seaworthy

You sure about that?

[Wellington]

Originally Posted by D&D

With the greatest respect to the many here who are more experienced than our mere ~20,000nm on our beloved vessel, we are moved to suggest that there appears to be a great and growing risk in this thread of painting with too broad a brush.

Simply put, our concern is that one could take the direction of many comments here to lead to the conclusion that, because a certain production builder (in our case Lagoon, the greatest offender) delivers many (perhaps most) of its vessels into the charter market...therefore vessels from that builder are by definition 'condomorans'...and, with a tiny further step of reasoning, both bad sailing vessels and unseaworthy for 'blue water'. We suggest that conclusion does a vessel buyer reading this thread a real dis-service...and we further suggest that conclusion is simply wrong.

A reasonably enquiry behind the inferences throughout this thread must note that (1) there are many (literally thousands of) vessels built with comfort as a high priority by the major vessel builders (Lagoon, FP, Leopard) and (2) many of those are NOT in charter and (3) such vessels are travelling the high seas around the globe very safely, most of them (in our experience anyway) sailing reasonably well as they do so. So if simply being a Lagoon (or FP etc) means a vessel is a 'condomoran', that label should not be confused with ability to sail safely and in comfort.

We admit to many comforts on our vessel. Two frigs and a freezer (all of the small, vessel variety...80L?) plus some galley and other comforts (albeit no microwave nor dishwasher nor washing machine) and loads of volume (which we often fill with stock for our business, making our vessel anything but light!) probably put us into what many here class as a condomoran. That said, we seldom use our engines when there's any sort of breeze about...and we have certainly been in some big seas and winds, very safely.

We hasten to further admit there are many vessels whose performance will surpass ours, but we also know we pass plenty of sailing vessels in our travels...and -- This is the important bit for us -- we do so safely and in comfort.

Enough of a rant. Our point is that being a large production vessel (in our case a Lagoon 440) may make a vessel a 'condomoran' in the eyes/opinions of some, but it absolutely does not mean the vessel is either not a sailing vessel, or unseaworthy.

Thank you D&D! I was getting so annoyed by some of the comments on this thread that I felt I had to respond... Then I read your post. You've said what I wanted to say, only in a much more eloquent way.

[rallyman1122]

I rarely post here or get involved in such discussions but I would like to thank D&D as well. This is the sailing life I envision for the future.

For those that say condomarans cant sail in blue water conditions, may I refer you to YouTube.

Search Catamaran Impi, or Chasing Stars, or Trio Travels or Cheeky Monkey or any of the many other vblogs.

Of simply search by manufacturer and ocean crossing. You will see videos of catamarans in heavy weather and large seas and surviving just fine.

But that's okay, don't let the evidence change your prejudices.

[D&D]

Our pleasure Wellington and rallyman

Fair winds and safe sailing to all!

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by rallyman1122

I rarely post here or get involved in such discussions but I would like to thank D&D as well. This is the sailing life I envision for the future.

For those that say condomarans cant sail in blue water conditions, may I refer you to YouTube.

Search Catamaran Impi, or Chasing Stars, or Trio Travels or Cheeky Monkey or any of the many other vblogs.

Of simply search by manufacturer and ocean crossing. You will see videos of catamarans in heavy weather and large seas and surviving just fine.

But that's okay, don't let the evidence change your change your prejudices.

The whole thing is a moot point. Not really worth the discussion. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[rallyman1122]

Originally Posted by rallyman1122

I rarely post here or get involved in such discussions but I would like to thank D&D as well. This is the sailing life I envision for the future.

For those that say condomarans cant sail in blue water conditions, may I refer you to YouTube.

Search Catamaran Impi, or Chasing Stars, or Trio Travels or Cheeky Monkey or any of the many other vblogs.

Of simply search by manufacturer and ocean crossing. You will see videos of catamarans in heavy weather and large seas and surviving just fine.

But that's okay, don't let the evidence change your prejudices.

Wow, one of my favorite blogs and I misname it in my previous post

NOT Chasing Stars but as follows

S/V Starry Horizons
Outchasingstars.com

Sorry to Amy and David!

[Bulawayo]

I'm not a lover of Lagoons ('cept for the old TPI's) or many of the other current trend of cats - however, there is no denying that these boats do sail and do get around. Several people that I respect have elected for these. Nor should anyone criticise another persons choice of boat/life style - after all, we dont know their circumstance or reasoning......

Originally Posted by rallyman1122

I rarely post here or get involved in such discussions but I would like to thank D&D as well. This is the sailing life I envision for the future.

For those that say condomarans cant sail in blue water conditions, may I refer you to YouTube.

Search Catamaran Impi, or Chasing Stars, or Trio Travels or Cheeky Monkey or any of the many other vblogs.

Of simply search by manufacturer and ocean crossing. You will see videos of catamarans in heavy weather and large seas and surviving just fine.

But that's okay, don't let the evidence change your prejudices.

[Factor]

And for those that choose a different path - see

Sail Wildling

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Factor

And for those that choose a different path - see

Sail Wildling

Now that's a cat I would leave my mono for....



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[Polux]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Hi Gary - I think you'll succeed in finding a ..cat that sails way better than the average cruising cat. It'll just cost you more money.

Exactly what is included in your definition of "comfort" that you may have to compromise on? ...a more performance oriented cruising cat for similar conditions. The performance cat may be a bit more bouncy at higher speeds, ..Generally, the faster you go, the less comfortable you will be...

However, you will likely find that the performance oriented cats will have less interior volume than a similar length condo cat. ...

... You'll just have to get a longer performance cat to get interior volume compared to a similar length condo cat. And you'll have to spend more money for those boards and other hardware, etc. typically present on the more sporty boats.

Dave

Yes I agree with the parts I quoted, more money, a more vivid motion and less interior volume and that's for more speed, even if I do not agree with your opinions regarding a performance cat to be as comfortable as a heavy cruising cat, at least for most.

Those are trade offs that the majority of cat owners are not interested, I mean more speed for all the rest and that's why condocats are the vast majority of the cat market and are increasing rapidly. You see traditional brands of performance cats start to make condo cats, that without doubt will be their major market, given some time.

Agreeing with what a Lagoon sailor had said:

Originally Posted by D&D

A reasonably enquiry behind the inferences throughout this thread must note that (1) there are many (literally thousands of) vessels built with comfort as a high priority by the major vessel builders (Lagoon, FP, Leopard) and (2) many of those are NOT in charter and (3) such vessels are travelling the high seas around the globe very safely, most of them (in our experience anyway) sailing reasonably well as they do so. So if simply being a Lagoon (or FP etc) means a vessel is a 'condomoran', that label should not be confused with ability to sail safely and in comfort.
...
We hasten to further admit there are many vessels whose performance will surpass ours, but we also know we pass plenty of sailing vessels in our travels...and -- This is the important bit for us -- we do so safely and in comfort.

....Our point is that being a large production vessel (in our case a Lagoon 440) may make a vessel a 'condomoran' in the eyes/opinions of some, but it absolutely does not mean the vessel is either not a sailing vessel, or unseaworthy.

We can see that the same happens in what regards monohulls. For instance you have Beneteau that seems to be given up from their "First" performance cruising line, the one that was on the origin of Beneteau.

The First offer a lot of comfort and a very good interior, more stability,more speed just a bit less space than on a similar Oceanis with the same length. They are also more expensive and it will be needed a First just a bit bigger to have the same interior volume of a smaller Oceanis.

But what we see is that most sailors that choose a monohull for cruising , like on the cats, are not interested on that trade off.

I say most because I am one of those interested on those trade offs, towards a faster and more fun boat to sail, but that does not make me blind to the point of not understanding that my tastes in what regards cruising are minority ones.

In fact If i had the money and would choose a cruising multihull, I would be very tented by several models (even cats) that offer great performance and sailing fun, but offer less interior volume than one of those main market monohulls of the same size.

That only means that my taste regarding choosing a multihull would be as minority as the one regarding choosing a monohull and that does not mean, quite the contrary, that I am not aware that the boats I would like and will suit me, would be very inadequate an poor to the majority of sailors.

The only thing I really don't like are the kind of guys that think that their own choice regarding his perfect boat is the best and more logical choice to all the sailors or all the cruisers. I would give up probably sailing if I had to sail some slow and sluggish boat