The Evolution of "Condomarans"

[D&D]

We should acknowledge that, as much as we shy away from the solid foredeck or even the close-mesh tramps, we have one of those (obviously dreaded by many here!) forward cockpits...and we have seen lots of green water in the latter! We do not, however, have a large vertical salon door (nor any other door!) in that forward cockpit area...and we do have two large drains at the bottom of the cockpit which seem to evacuate the water quickly.

Our reluctance toward the solid foredeck can probably be traced to one particular experience where we were catapulted off one wave, straight into the back of another with the whole bow (both hulls) submerged into the wave in front and green water passing over the entire vessel. The bows emerged upward almost immediately, thankfully, but it left an indelible impression that that happy result was entirely due to no resistance between the hulls on that upward movement. The forward cockpit emptied out of the drains without any apparent stability effect(s).

We admit we are not even close to marine engineers and we acknowledge that vessel designers must contemplate all this in their designs.

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Hi Polux, I like the way CW cats sail but I shall never subscribe to forward cockpits (nor raised helming positions with raised booms). It also leaves the the helmsman very exposed to the weather that shall bring on exhaustion even quicker. The helmsman can see the waves coming - but has no where to go for protection either. Forward cockpits also suggest forward doors and that is another vertical surface for a greenie to slam into. Whilst this is all fine in fair weather I do question what could happen in extreme conditions? This issue could be that we never get to hear about similar boats as there is no one to report what happened.
In theory, a light weight, bouyant boat might never get affected but that does not describe a typical offshore laden down cruising boat.
However, each to their own and many raised helm craft sail successfully around the globe. No doubt there are many forward cockpit boats that do similar ....... but I wont be joining this particular trend - I do not require that excitement in my life.
I would also suggest that with a few eye pads it wouldntn't be too difficult to provide a taut canvas over a forward cockpit that might reduce the capture size to a manageable quantity.

It should be noted that the CW boats are a COMPLETELY different kettle of fish. The cockpit is set well back at the expense of salon and rear deck depth. There is a big net area up front spanning two narrow hulls. It has a full internal helm station with wheel and throttle controls for when the forward cockpit is too wet. In short, it's a fully capable blue water boat and shouldn't be compared to these other ones we're talking about.

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[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by smj

Some would say the solid foredeck gives buoyancy and lift so the bows don't get driven down to far. Others would say the solid foredeck doesn't allow as much green water on deck as the trampolines.


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Anyone who says those things is blowing smoke. The way to prevent diving of bows is with hull design, not letting a solid bridgedeck get slammed upward.

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[smj]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Anyone who says those things is blowing smoke. The way to prevent diving of bows is with hull design, not letting a solid bridgedeck get slammed upward.

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I would like to agree with you as my preference is towards a cat with trampolines, but having owned a few cats with solid bridge decks, I think they do have their merits. There is no doubt that a cat with a solid bridgedeck doesn't depress it's bows as deeply as a trampoline boat as the solid bridgedeck does ad a lot of buoyancy, but when the conditions are bad enough and the solid bridgedeck no longer ads to the buoyancy of the bow but rather depresses it, then maybe the trampoline boat is more seaworthy?


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[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by smj

I would like to agree with you as my preference is towards a cat with trampolines, but having owned a few cats with solid bridge decks, I think they do have their merits. There is no doubt that a cat with a solid bridgedeck doesn't depress it's bows as deeply as a trampoline boat as the solid bridgedeck does ad a lot of buoyancy, but when the conditions are bad enough and the solid bridgedeck no longer ads to the buoyancy of the bow but rather depresses it, then maybe the trampoline boat is more seaworthy?


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Well you can think that but I doubt you'd find any cat designer to back that theory.

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[smj]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Well you can think that but I doubt you'd find any cat designer to back that theory.

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Yes, I think that way as that is what my experience has taught me. I'm not saying the solid bridgedeck cat is more seaworthy, as there's got to be a point where the bow's and the solid bridgedeck are overwhelmed by the seas. I've never reached that point. I'm sure the Prout brothers, designers of some of the most seaworthy cats produced may back that theory?


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[Moonos]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I liked the one with the forward cockpit, if it comes with hot 25 yr. olds. hot girls.

I'd just have to remember why.

It's personal choice. Some like sailing some like socializing.

It's a choice. I'm afraid the sailing has less money?

Just like "bowrider" 20 foot power boats. Useless in any swell, but great for young bikini clad ladies up front sipping champagne👍.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Very few people can afford a fast catamaran, new or used, that points at 45A and can sail in 5knots of wind.

For those that cant they have two choices. Buy a production cat that is equally safe but does not sail as well as the performance cat, but will get you from point A to B even over oceans OR they can buy nothing and criticise the former on cruiser forum.

For a fast cat, 45' apparent isn't pointing. Back in the good old days, when our sails were new, and the boat a bit lighter, we could sail at pretty much true wind speed at 45' apparent. That meant our TWA would be 90'.

And there's a third choice. Build yourself a nice fast cat, and save money too.

And you can even have a house fridge if you want... our sistership has a house fridge, (though not as big as the one in the OP). Most of the time it runs off the solar panels.

[Polux]

Regarding condo cats, if the Bali are bad news in what regards sailing it seems the the new Nautitech 40, now under Bavaria ownership are good news.

The boat had been tested by Yachtingworld (last number) having as tester a sailor that does not like sailboats that sail badly and he was impressed. Sure the boat, as all the boats of this type points baldly if compared to a monohull but he points out that the boat sails well on all points of sail and has a very good feel at the wheel.

So for the ones that want a catamaran with more interior space, not very expensive, but one that does not sail badly probably this one deserves a good look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95AWHXIzn2s

[scarlet]

I saw this boat as well, and in my opinion.. this isn't a 'condomaran'.. it's a party boat.

[solarbri]

In my opinion, having watched the leading edge of my trampoline dip into on coming waves and pick up what seemed like 100 gallons of water at a time, I think that a solid bridge deck cat MAY give you extra buoyancy until it doesn't . That is, if it starts to scoop up water, it will scoop up ALOT of water, and that is no bueno!!!

[Cuttyhunk]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Just out of curiosity, I have seen no evaluation of Endeavour Cats? I had made friends with a couple that had an Endeavour Trawler Cat, over a beer. Impressive appointments for a 36 footer. Wondering about their sailing cats?

I have one, and I am in love with it. It is not the most beautiful boat to my eye, but then I don't like the look of catamarans in general. Tris are much more graceful (I had an F-24 for a few years). It is stoutly built. Mine is not the fastest thing to sail, but I bought it with old sails, now older still. In a couple of years I will get new ones and we shall see then how well it does.

It is comfortable, the systems were well thought out and well installed, and has 7' headroom in most areas, an essential item for my first mate. There have not been that many built, hence few reviews.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Cuttyhunk

I have one, and I am in love with it. It is not the most beautiful boat to my eye, but then I don't like the look of catamarans in general. Tris are much more graceful (I had an F-24 for a few years). It is stoutly built. Mine is not the fastest thing to sail, but I bought it with old sails, now older still. In a couple of years I will get new ones and we shall see then how well it does.

It is comfortable, the systems were well thought out and well installed, and has 7' headroom in most areas, an essential item for my first mate. There have not been that many built, hence few reviews.

Thanks! You somewhat told me what I expected. I thought it was a lot of boat for it's size. Probably great for someone not wanting to go around the world.

[iliohale]

Have to admit, I have been considering the Condomaran path and have been thinking long and hard about the FP Helia. Until I had the opportunity to sail one in a typical Westerly on San Francisco Bay when we wanted to go to weather. This experience plus blogs like this one have given me pause to want to look at the performance/cruising class of boats such as Outremer, Slyder, and Catana.

We plan to attend the La Grande Motte show in April and sail on these boats to understand the difference in sailing performance and comfort level. I mean the comfort aspect of the FP Helia is outstanding but I would not be happy with a boat that does not sail well overall. Everything is a compromise and we may ultimately make a choice to give up some performance for comfort. I am just hopeful that we can have our cake and eat it too without needing to speed a zillion dollars for a Gunboat 66.

Gary

[Polux]

Originally Posted by iliohale

Have to admit, I have been considering the Condomaran path and have been thinking long and hard about the FP Helia. Until I had the opportunity to sail one in a typical Westerly on San Francisco Bay when we wanted to go to weather. This experience plus blogs like this one have given me pause to want to look at the performance/cruising class of boats such as Outremer, Slyder, and Catana.

We plan to attend the La Grande Motte show in April and sail on these boats to understand the difference in sailing performance and comfort level. I mean the comfort aspect of the FP Helia is outstanding but I would not be happy with a boat that does not sail well overall. Everything is a compromise and we may ultimately make a choice to give up some performance for comfort. I am just hopeful that we can have our cake and eat it too without needing to speed a zillion dollars for a Gunboat 66.

Gary

It seems you are the only one that have noticed that the performance of a condo cat is not very good upwind

The problem is that the difference of price between a condo cat and the performance cat is big (not a problem if you have the money). Maybe you want to try also a half way between the two, cats with keels that have a better performance upwind than condo cats (but worse than cats with daggerboards),boats like Nautitech that know that are owned by Bavaria and have intermediate prices or the Aventura 43 with its high tech keels that provide upwing grip but not much lateral area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opQONkqJXY8