Spinnaker or Code 0

[DeValency]

Thanks, Barnakiel - all very true -

Few comments:

I think I am looking at a 2 spreader plan with a fitting for 2nd stay at the upper spreader and on the deck about a third of the distance from the bow.
- Right, the inner stay deck point is right behind the anchors locker.

If your place is very light and light mostly, (5-15 knots) - I think one good option is to have a Stormlite (or a light laminate) sail on the bow, furling (normal alloy foil furler), max foot size as the image shows (160% eh?). I would use the heavier of the two grades of Stormlite, or else something close to the 200 gr weight. Now this sail will need its own zip sleeve that you hoist with a spinnaker halyard. UV degrades light cloth fast, and sunbrella strip is not a good choice when building a light sail. I would order it with a foam luff, not to use it furled but only to give the cloth some support when the sail rests furled.
- This is an interesting suggestion and basically what I was looking at - yes, the present genoa is 160%. I need to look at the materials you suggest here and corresponding designs.

On the inner stay I would place an overlap jib, foamed and on a good furler, with flat cut - a sail that would be equally happy furled out and overlapping (120% or so) and furled down to say 75% - with sheets led inside then. I think about 250-300 gram cloth, sunbrella strips. It should be max size that fits - not the self tacker we sometimes see on cutters. (A self tacker will under-power you in light-moderate winds on AWA 60-120). Good part-furled performance is essential on this sail (foam luff and a good sailmaker).
- The present inner gib/staysail is on a good Furlex already with a 120% overlap (bingo!) and the rest of the suggestions here. It served me extremely well at multiple heavier weather conditions in the West Indies and all the way to Florida earlier this year, very easy to tack. When arriving to Boston, I will use it for the quick tacks out of the harbor, but outside, with the common summer light breeze is where I want the new light genoa.

if your place is very light - beware of getting undrer-powered in the upper range of the 10-15 knots bracket as soon as you bear off to AWA 60-120 - when a big light genoa can no longer be used (it will stretch and die soon) while a too small inner jib is still not powerful enough.
- Right! Hence keep the existing staysail 120% for any conditions and furl the new light genoa in the rare 12+ kts of summer breeze here.

Thanks again!
Nitzan (DeValency)

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I have had a look now at a Contest 43 sail plan.


I think I am looking at a 2 spreader plan with a fitting for 2nd stay at the upper spreader and on the deck about a third of the distance from the bow.


https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/contest-43


If this is the case, then depending on what is the prevailing sailing weather in your place, you could have some hard choices.


If your place is very light and light mostly, (5-15 knots) - I think one good option is to have a Stormlite (or a light laminate) sail on the bow, furling (normal alloy foil furler), max foot size as the image shows (160% eh?). I would use the heavier of the two grades of Stormlite, or else something close to the 200 gr weight. Now this sail will need its own zip sleeve that you hoist with a spinnaker halyard. UV degrades light cloth fast, and sunbrella strip is not a good choice when building a light sail. I would order it with a foam luff, not to use it furled but only to give the cloth some support when the sail rests furled.


On the inner stay I would place an overlap jib, foamed and on a good furler, with flat cut - a sail that would be equally happy furled out and overlapping (120% or so) and furled down to say 75% - with sheets led inside then. I think about 250-300 gram cloth, sunbrella strips. It should be max size that fits - not the self tacker we sometimes see on cutters. (A self tacker will under-power you in light-moderate winds on AWA 60-120). Good part-furled performance is essential on this sail (foam luff and a good sailmaker).



If your place is mostly 15-25 knots, I would not use a light genoa at all. I would use a mid-weight genoa outside 300 gr or so and a non overlaping one on the inner stay. In this case the inner sail can be cut much smaller, and it can have fuller shape too. But the outer one now needs a pro grade foam luff and a super duper sailmaker that will cut it to work both all out and furled down to its 75%. It can also come with a sunbrela strip and no need for a zip sock.


To sum it up: if your place is windy - it is an easy job, if your place is very light - beware of getting undrer-powered in the upper range of the 10-15 knots bracket as soon as you bear off to AWA 60-120 - when a big light genoa can no longer be used (it will stretch and die soon) while a too small inner jib is still not powerful enough.


You are very lucky to sail a Farr 40 and a Contest 43. Each is a best thing in their own class.


Cheers,
b.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by DeValency

"the inner stay deck point is right behind the anchors locker."...
"The present inner gib/staysail is on a good Furlex already with a 120% overlap (bingo!) and the rest of the suggestions here. It served me extremely well at multiple heavier weather conditions in the West Indies and all the way to Florida earlier this year, very easy to tack. When arriving to Boston, I will use it for the quick tacks out of the harbor, but outside, with the common summer light breeze is where I want the new light genoa"

Just out of curiosity, that 120% jib on the inner stay must sheet outboard of the shrouds. How do you get "close hauled" with that? Can you effectively point close to the wind?

[Marathon1150]

Great commentary and advice all around. Different boats and variable experience in different oceans often lead to different conclusions regarding what is "best". We have two boats - one has an AS and the other a "drifter" a very light, luff tension sail that we fly on a pole when the wind moves back of the beam. It is reasonably easy to handle until the wind builds. It does not have a sock so getting it up is usually easy because we use it in "light air". Getting down is always exciting because the air has become heavier.

The second boat with the AS has a big (150), medium weight genoa. The AS has a sock and is therefore much easier to handle than the drifter on the other boat.

This downwind sailing video from the World Cruising Club is worth watching.

https://vimeo.com/438216901/be313e6acd

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Just out of curiosity, that 120% jib on the inner stay must sheet outboard of the shrouds. How do you get "close hauled" with that? Can you effectively point close to the wind?

Good question. Actually the staysail sheets (and the sail itself) are running inside the masthead shrouds and outbound the mid mast shrouds. It works well in pointing upwind, of course better than the genoa.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by ewishki

Going to replace my sails and want to add either a spinnaker or code 0. Which should I pick? I love the look of the big spinnaker flying but will the code 0 give me more options and performance?

From the responses above I suggest you buy a MONO hull, Contest or Farr something. These guys appear to know absolutely squat about what sails to buy for your MULTI hull.


Sorry guys this discussion great as it maybe does not address what the OP asked.


For most cruising CATS a big lightweight flat furling sail will be the most flexible addition to their working sails. Owned an asym spinnaker for years and used it occasionally as the envelope for efficiency was so small. Bought a big lightweight flat furling sail that works upwind and downwind and have worn out 3 of these. On a CAT downwind you can use a table cloth, old bimini or just as anything that adds area, the key is to buy a sail that works for the boat upwind in light airs.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

From the responses above I suggest you buy a MONO hull, Contest or Farr something. These guys appear to know absolutely squat about what sails to buy for your MULTI hull.


Sorry guys this discussion great as it maybe does not address what the OP asked.


For most cruising CATS a big lightweight flat furling sail will be the most flexible addition to their working sails. Owned an asym spinnaker for years and used it occasionally as the envelope for efficiency was so small. Bought a big lightweight flat furling sail that works upwind and downwind and have worn out 3 of these. On a CAT downwind you can use a table cloth, old bimini or just as anything that adds area, the key is to buy a sail that works for the boat upwind in light airs.

I like this idea. Sounds like the most versatile single sail you can add to the standard big roach main and self tacking jib setup of a catamaran.

Dead down wind, would you just go wing on wing with it? Either this flat sail and the jib or the flat sail and the main if it was really light air?

What about slightly off the wind maybe at 140-160? How would you rig it?

[BigNut]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Bought a big lightweight flat furling sail that works upwind and downwind and have worn out 3 of these. On a CAT downwind you can use a table cloth, old bimini or just as anything that adds area, the key is to buy a sail that works for the boat upwind in light airs.

Could you be more specific as to the sail?
Asking as we plan to branch out from having only a main and genoa soon on our chunkycat (tm, lol), and need a cruising sail that will work all-round and remain on a furler.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I like this idea. Sounds like the most versatile single sail you can add to the standard big roach main and self tacking jib setup of a catamaran.

Dead down wind, would you just go wing on wing with it? Either this flat sail and the jib or the flat sail and the main if it was really light air?

What about slightly off the wind maybe at 140-160? How would you rig it?

speaking of, i am in middle of preparation for that setup.

Plan to use main & gennaker, total sail area 136m2. Main fully open and use preventer and topping lift to fix it. Run with app angle at around 150-160.

Yet to actually test as we have too much wind lately.

[BigNut]

I don’t like using the main for this. On cats (our cat?) the shrouds come too far aft, given no backstay. So chafe is a huge issue. And preventers a must. This is the main reason I am trying to decide on what to use for a 3d sail. I already have the fittings for a “gennaker” aboard - came with the boat, but no sail.
I still don’t truly understand what a “gennaker” is! [emoji85][emoji85][emoji85]

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by BigNut

I don’t like using the main for this. On cats (our cat?) the shrouds come too far aft, given no backstay. So chafe is a huge issue. And preventers a must. This is the main reason I am trying to decide on what to use for a 3d sail. I already have the fittings for a “gennaker” aboard - came with the boat, but no sail.
I still don’t truly understand what a “gennaker” is! [emoji85][emoji85][emoji85]

It appears mine will have the same problem with the swept back shrouds.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

...
For most cruising CATS a big lightweight flat furling sail will be the most flexible addition to their working sails. Owned an asym spinnaker for years and used it occasionally as the envelope for efficiency was so small. Bought a big lightweight flat furling sail that works upwind and downwind and have worn out 3 of these. On a CAT downwind you can use a table cloth, old bimini or just as anything that adds area, the key is to buy a sail that works for the boat upwind in light airs.

So Tupaia, is that big flat sail a Code 0 or a Screecher, or what do you call it? and how is it different from the two I just named?

True I don't really know squat about multihulls, just what I learn talking to multihuller people, there are a lot of them around, and most are not as dismissive of know nothing mono guys as you, but we must all prove our superiority somehow, I guess. But I'd like to learn, so tell me more about the sail you have, and also why you don't think there is any value in an assym sail for multihulls even when the destination is truly downwind, do you always reach hard enough to bring the apparent wind abeam?

In this photo, what is the guy doing wrong? Could a table cloth or a sheet really serve?


When I look at the polars for an Outremer 45 I see the best TWA for downwind VMG is about 145deg. Would you say a code zero is effective for that wind angle? (or would it be an Assym kite?)

Outremer 45.jpg Views: 133 Size: 78.0 KB ID: 222763" style="margin: 2px" />

So what exactly is wrong with the recommendations for having both on a multihull? What is it we are missing?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by BigNut

I don’t like using the main for this. On cats (our cat?) the shrouds come too far aft, given no backstay. So chafe is a huge issue. And preventers a must. This is the main reason I am trying to decide on what to use for a 3d sail. I already have the fittings for a “gennaker” aboard - came with the boat, but no sail.
I still don’t truly understand what a “gennaker” is! [emoji85][emoji85][emoji85]

A gennaker is a term some sail maker coined a long time ago to sell spinnakers to cruising customers: spinnakers (symmetrical back then) were considered scary and only for racing, while genoas were benign. A gennaker is usually an asymmetric spinnaker for broad reaching to dead down wind, probably with a sock, and on a multi can be flown from the windward bow or a centreline prod. It is typically flatter than a symmetric spinnaker so as to be easier to handle with less area up high. A monohull could fly this sail from the bow or using a pole.

A lot of the confusion is in the naming; both bleed over from racing sails (‘code’, ‘asymmetric’) where the names have specific meanings given by the rating rules, and due to the fact that different sailmakers will name the same type of sail different things.

Note that an asymmetric sail has luffs of different lengths: one is always the luff and the other is always the leach, same as a genoa. A symmetric sail has luffs that are the same length.

In general terms:

A symmetric spinnaker is a broad reaching to downwind sail, typically with a sock (for cruising), where the body of the sail, especially up high, is deep. The windward tack is flown from the windward bow and the leeward tack is flown from a block at the other stern. You need two sheets on each tack, with one running through a block on the bow and the other through the aft block (one of the sheets on each side will be ‘lazy’, until you gybe). No pole needed on a multi. These sails are not very stable and can be a handful in trade wind conditions. Monohulls need to use poles to spread out the foot and to project the tack to windward, but poles aren’t needed on multis.

A variant of the symmetric spinnaker is the wingaker/parasail: this is a symmetric spinnaker with a horizontal slot and inflated “wing” (like a kite surfing wing) about two thirds of the way up. This wing provides a lot of stability and enables the sail to be smaller and flatter than the equivalent symmetric spinnaker. It is flown like a spinnaker and can reportedly reach happily as it is flatter. These are relatively expensive.

Asymmetric sails now come in two flavours: reaching and downwind sails on top down furlers (gennakers!), and close reaching and upwind sails on bottom up furlers. The top down and bottom up refer to which part of the sail is furled first - it is the part of the sail with the widest girth (i.e. the most sail area).

The fuller-bodied top down asymmetric is suitable for dead downwind up to a broad reach, replacing a symmetric spinnaker, and can be flown from either a centreline prod or from the windward bow. The sail can be designed with less sail area up high to be more suitable for broad reaching and even reaching, though since it has less sail area up high it won’t be as efficient for dead downwind - that’s your trade off.

The flatter bottom up asymmetric sail will be suitable for close reaching and even upwind. Racers call these code sails and in cruising it’s often called a screecher. If you have a smaller self tacking jib then it makes sense to optimise the screecher as an upwind sail for light airs, while if you have an overlapping genoa then it could be a bit fuller for more power close reaching. These sails are flown from a centreline prod. You could go broad reaching or even downwind by moving the tack to the windward bow, but there won’t be enough sail area in lighter wind.

For the OP on a Leopard 44, I expect an asymmetric top down furled sail will be most versatile. Generally it can be tacked to the centreline prod (I assume you have one?), or to the windward bow for dead downwind if your main is up. If it’s cut a little flatter then you can also reach up with it in lighter winds.

It’s the only sail you need in trade wind conditions (15-25 knots true wind speed): lower the main to save on chafe. For extra power in lighter winds sheet the asymmetric to windward and fly your genoa to leeward - wing and wing.

You could instead opt for a symmetric spinnaker, or if money is available a wingaker. Either sail will work best without a main for dead downwind or even broad reaching. Neither symmetric sail will be as versatile as the asymmetric, but will be a bit more stable and efficient dead downwind.

The asymmetric on its top down furler will be easier to put away in the case of a squall - just let the sheet fly and furl it from the cockpit, while the spinnaker will need to be socked or otherwise lowered from the trampolines.

[BigNut]

Originally Posted by fxykty

A gennaker is a

Thank you fxykty!

That helps a lot. I agree it is easier for those who race and have enormous wardrobes (not us, lol).

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fxykty

A gennaker is a term...

I think we all thank you.

[Chotu]

That was a GREAT read. Thank you.