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31-01-2017, 20:16
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The World
Boat: Fountaine Pajot, Bahia, 46ft cat
Posts: 36
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Shocked by hull material catamaran
Hi all,
Just wanted to share this with all of you. I was on the yard in Martinique today and was totally shocked by what I saw there. It's a Lagoon 570 which hit the reefs in Union island. Result was huge damage but that's not the shocking part since that's quite predictable but what I did find really shocking is the materials used. Look for yourself. The fluffy wooden core (see especially the last two pics) looks like totally untreated (as in not soaked with anything that keeps moisture out), it will just suck moisture like a sponge if you have anything but the tiniest (unnoticed) damage in the thin (!) outer skin. ![Nonono](https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/images/smilies/nonono.gif)
A sacrificial keel would have helped a lot in this case as well, I don't understand that Lagoons don't make them sacrificial. ![11_confused](https://www.cruisersforum.com/images/smilies/confused.gif) better no keel at all but a dry boat than a wet boat with a bit of damaged keel left, right (or left ;-) )?
If anybody else has comparable pictures from whichever brand, please add those in this thread as well. I've been searching for good information myself for a long time since we're about to buy a catamaran and I don't want to end up with some crappy thing.. For me (blue water sailor) a Lagoon was already a no-go and I'm very happy with that decision now. even more...
I find it's incredible easy to find not so interesting marketing information about space, luxury and comfort but nothing about things that really matter; quality-wise. So I invite everybody to share their information and show pictures.
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31-01-2017, 20:35
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: DFW
Boat: wanting a cat
Posts: 509
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Check out the post I started on multihulls, "Poor Construction".
Thanks for posting that!
meatservo
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31-01-2017, 20:43
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Western Australia
Boat: between boats
Posts: 1,022
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Interesting pics and thanks for posting but probably shouldnt be shocking.
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that lagoon uses balsa cored hull bottoms although that never seems to rate a mention in the many discussions about galley layout, number of berths etc
Monolithic hull bottoms (preferably with some kevlar or similar) are the only sturdy way to go I reckon
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31-01-2017, 21:07
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The World
Boat: Fountaine Pajot, Bahia, 46ft cat
Posts: 36
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barra
Interesting pics and thanks for posting but probably shouldnt be shocking.
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that lagoon uses balsa cored hull bottoms although that never seems to rate a mention in the many discussions about galley layout, number of berths etc
Monolithic hull bottoms (preferably with some kevlar or similar) are the only sturdy way to go I reckon
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You are right but this title attracts more readers and I hope many will join to share their info ![Biggrin](https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif) That plus the fact that actually I did know this indeed already for the ABOVE the waterline part. But I have to admit that I didn't spent much time in Lagoons, I was quite quickly convinced they are not for me. I had no idea they also have this below the waterline, which makes it so much more silly designing since you just can't see nor repair all damages you might cause somewhere cruising around in the Tuamotus with their coral heads. Even if you would dive all the time to check if you suspect damage, there is no haul out facility so no chance to repair. It's bad enough to have it above the waterline but to me it's shocking to have it below the waterline.
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31-01-2017, 21:37
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Sorry don't understand shocking, its end grain Balsa?'isnt it? Its sealed, until you hit a reef! Glass is laminated onto the balsa and the balsa blocks are laminated together but if you rip the bottom of the boat off well then of course you are exposing the balsa to water.
Am I missing something? Lots of cats (boats) are constructed this way.
Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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31-01-2017, 21:57
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The World
Boat: Fountaine Pajot, Bahia, 46ft cat
Posts: 36
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Quote:
Originally Posted by daletournier
Sorry don't understand shocking, its end grain Balsa?'isnt it? Its sealed, until you hit a reef! Glass is laminated onto the balsa and the balsa blocks are laminated together but if you rip the bottom of the boat off well then of course you are exposing the balsa to water.
Am I missing something? Lots of cats (boats) are constructed this way.
Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Well then in my opinion lots of cats (boats) are built in a shocking way. Luckily not ALL boats are built like this, not even production boats, I've seen pieces coming out of a hull that had new through-hulls drilled and they were thick solid glass. This was with a Bahia.
If there would be a real thick layer around, well, that might help but check this thin layer, that's way too easily penetrated by something!!! That will cause huge damage if unnoticed/untreated. If you dig very well, you will find tons of people who will never ever buy a boat with a balsa core anymore. It's beautiful material until it gets soaked and well, that chance is quite high with something like a boat. Even more if you live on it and sail in remote areas where you can't get hauled out.
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31-01-2017, 22:09
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilona
Well then in my opinion lots of cats (boats) are built in a shocking way. Luckily not ALL boats are built like this, not even production boats, I've seen pieces coming out of a hull that had new through-hulls drilled and they were thick solid glass. This was with a Bahia.
If there would be a real thick layer around, well, that might help but check this thin layer, that's way too easily penetrated by something!!! That will cause huge damage if unnoticed/untreated. If you dig very well, you will find tons of people who will never ever buy a boat with a balsa core anymore. It's beautiful material until it gets soaked and well, that chance is quite high with something like a boat. Even more if you live on it and sail in remote areas where you can't get hauled out.
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And you'll find tons of people that do buy, them, this is not new, balsa boats have been cruising the world oceans for years, there are 1,000s out there.
This is a subject that has been discussed over and over, often with no agreeing at the end. Ive read most of what there is to read and previously owned a balsa build, I have drilled through it, hit stuff in it and sailed many 1,000s of miles, most that (not all) make big statements regarding there longevity haven't any first hand experience with them.
When you smash a reef, and do that sort of damage its unlikely to make any difference what hull medium is used.
Anyway, everyones entitled to their opinion.
Cheers.
Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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31-01-2017, 22:26
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 897
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Quote:
Originally Posted by daletournier
Sorry don't understand shocking, its end grain Balsa?'isnt it? Its sealed, until you hit a reef! Glass is laminated onto the balsa and the balsa blocks are laminated together but if you rip the bottom of the boat off well then of course you are exposing the balsa to water.
Am I missing something? Lots of cats (boats) are constructed this way.
Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Yep. I agree. Interesting that smaller Lagoon models of that era (380, 400, 420, 421, 450) utilise hull construction with solid glass below waterline. Newer model Lagoons (L42) are balsa cored below WL, as are newer Fountaine Pajot, as are all Leopard models. Most "performance catamarans" are fully cored composite. If the fibreglass is epoxy, it will be even thinner.
The whole point of composite sandwich construction is to have two THIN layers of glass either side of a core, usually foam or timber. This makes a strong, rigid hull that is lighter than solid glass. Unfortunately, cored laminates don't stand up to rocks and coral as well as solid glass. Then again, nothing really does.
There's been plenty of these CF threads previously; where a catamaran has been ground to pieces by waves on rocks or coral and posters write "oh my, look at that flimsy construction".
The point is that ANY boat will be fairly quickly busted to pieces by big waves on rocks or coral.
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31-01-2017, 22:33
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie
Yep. I agree. Interesting that smaller Lagoon models of that era (380, 400, 420, 421, 450) utilise hull construction with solid glass below waterline. Newer model Lagoons (L42) are balsa cored below WL, as are newer Fountaine Pajot, as are all Leopard models. Most "performance catamarans" are fully cored composite. If the fibreglass is epoxy, it will be even thinner.
The whole point of composite sandwich construction is to have two THIN layers of glass either side of a core, usually foam or timber. This makes a strong, rigid hull that is lighter than solid glass. Unfortunately, cored laminates don't stand up to rocks and coral as well as solid glass. Then again, nothing really does.
There's been plenty of these CF threads previously; where a catamaran has been ground to pieces by waves on rocks or coral and posters write "oh my, look at that flimsy construction".
The point is that ANY boat will be fairly quickly busted to pieces by big waves on rocks or coral.
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Interesting enough the early TPI built lagoons (mid 90's) were all balsa as well. They have a very good reputation as a very strong cats that sail very well. At the time they were an expensive boat, definitely weren't considered a cheap build.
Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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31-01-2017, 23:11
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#10
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Resin Head
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie
The point is that ANY boat will be fairly quickly busted to pieces by big waves on rocks or coral.
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Having repaired a great many boats that went on the rocks, I would debate that. Perhaps not the "big waves" part, but that is most certainly not always the situation when a vessel goes aground.
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O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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31-01-2017, 23:13
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#11
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Resin Head
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
The laminate schedule visible in this picture is comparable to a production sea kayak layup. Totally insufficient for a vessel of this size.
I would absolutely love to burn test some hull samples from a Lagoon of this era; I'm fairly certain that infusion methods are resulting in a high resin ratio. That layup looks mighty rich to me.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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01-02-2017, 01:35
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#12
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Moderator
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 14,678
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
It is interesting to walk around boatyards and look at damaged boats.
Manufacturers once published the layup schedule, but these days buyers don't seem interested in the fundamentals of how a boat is constructed and the information is hard to get. Looking at smashed boats is a good way to learn how the different brands are put together.
The weight in catamarans is always critical and very thin skins are quite common, so the photos don't surprise me.
Boatyard examples of structures that have failed without any severe impact damage are even more illuminating. Unfortunately, there is a depressing number of these, especially in boatyards that see long distance cruising boats.
If you are buying a new boat ask detailed questions about how the boat is constructed and compare the various models. This is the most important detail to get right. If nothing else, I think if buyers asked these questions manufacturers would put more money into constructing the boat to a higher standard.
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01-02-2017, 01:41
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#13
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CF Adviser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 10,280
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
Having repaired a great many boats that went on the rocks, I would debate that. Perhaps not the "big waves" part, but that is most certainly not always the situation when a vessel goes aground.
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I have to agree with that....Steel or Alloy hulls and keels will survive a much greater bashing
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01-02-2017, 02:09
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Slidell, La.
Boat: Morgan Classic 33
Posts: 2,845
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Par for the course for most production boats. The boat should be scrapped, unless they plan on removing the interior to allow full repair with removal of core and build up with solid glass and appropriate structural members inside and a heavy schedule skin, properly layered and faired, outside. This is not a racing boat...
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01-02-2017, 02:20
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#15
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Moderator Emeritus
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Seville London Eastbourne
Posts: 13,406
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran
Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77
If you are buying a new boat ask detailed questions about how the boat is constructed and compare the various models. This is the most important detail to get right. If nothing else, I think if buyers asked these questions manufacturers would put more money into constructing the boat to a higher standard.
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I think it always comes down to the bottom line in production building. They work to a price and ............. thats about it. The extra cost to do it right would be tripled and thrown at the customer to pay... then the customer will say it is too expensive and the whole cycle starts over at the common denominator of price being the criteria for quality.
Sucks dont it...
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
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