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Old 01-02-2017, 02:46   #16
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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I think it always comes down to the bottom line in production building. They work to a price and ............. thats about it. The extra cost to do it right would be tripled and thrown at the customer to pay... then the customer will say it is too expensive and the whole cycle starts over at the common denominator of price being the criteria for quality.

Sucks dont it...
Or, they could cut out the moneys sent to shareholders and a lot of (probably) useless upper management, spend it on high quality manufacturing, and pass whatever (if any) real costs involved at a rate commensurate with the level of quality achieved, at a reasonable markup, which should be acceptable to any knowledgeable buyer.

(Yes, I realize this is [mostly] an imaginary, idealistic position.)

Glass and resin are relatively inexpensive.

Doesn't fit into the corporo-capitalistic business model very well though...
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:15   #17
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

Im not shocked at all, as usual they cant touch a reef, by the way if you guys found this shocking disturbing pics from a L57 i see a Catana in the yard with a similar damage and disturbing hull lay up, he go aground around Anguilla, the surveyor is still wondering where to start.....
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:19   #18
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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Sucks dont it...
I agree, although price is important. Today we get a hell of a lot of boat for not much money.

However, the hull build cost is typically only something like 1/3 of the total cost. A significant increase in the quality of the fundamental hull structure could be incorporated for a relatively small increase in price.

Unfortunately, when manufacturers do use higher quality materials/methods frequently the major consideration is reducing weight. For long distance cruising boats I think there should be more emphasis (on monohulls at least) on a strong reliable and easily repaired structure that will survive the rough and tumble of constant use in tough conditions.

Of course a more expensive boat that was the same weight as alternatives would be difficult to sell, at least until consumers start questioning construction techniques.
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:24   #19
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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Im not shocked at all, as usual they cant touch a reef, by the way if you guys found this shocking disturbing pics from a L57 i see a Catana in the yard with a similar damage and disturbing hull lay up, he go aground around Anguilla, the surveyor is still wondering where to start.....
That hasnt "touched a reef" come'n.


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Old 01-02-2017, 03:27   #20
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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That hasnt "touched a reef" come'n.


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What?? the Catana go aground in rocks at Anguilla and the Lagoon in Unión Island..
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:27   #21
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I agree, although price is important. Today we get a hell of a lot of boat for not much money.

However, the hull build cost is typically only something like 1/3 of the total cost. A significant increase in the quality of the fundamental hull structure could be incorporated for a relatively small increase in price.

Unfortunately, when manufacturers do use higher quality materials/methods frequently the major consideration is reducing weight. For long distance cruising boats I think there should be more emphasis on a strong reliable and easily repaired structure that will survive the rough and tumble of constant use in tough conditions.

Of course a more expensive boat that was the same weight as alternatives would be difficult to sell, at least until consumers start questioning construction techniques.
Improving the structural beefiness: The problem is that whilst the better materials are cheap, the labour cost to do it is usually more because of techniques involved....otherwise weight vs cost vs labour would favour the better materials involved. In the end, it always seems the cheapest method wins out... and they can charge a premium for it that appears a better deal than a better made product..

I have learned through your boat building expedition that a custom designed vessel made to a general design gives the customer EXACTLY what he wants. Im in favour of this as the customer specifies what is important to him.

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Old 01-02-2017, 04:08   #22
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

Reality is most cruising boats last 30-40yrs and the original owner is long gone before the boat is anywhere near that age, so what do they care if eventually, the hull starts to give out decades down the road?


This wasn't a soft grounding, this was beat the tar out of the bottom and not many boats would survive significantly better...even the metal hulled boats.


For all the corporate hatred, they are building a product that survives just fine in the vast majority of cases and if maintained, it will never become a major issue.


Keep in mind by the time you get to that 30-40yrs out, the engines and other systems are likely due for replacement and you reach a point where it is no longer cost effective to retrofit, so the boat will be scrapped regardless of how the hull is holding up.
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Old 01-02-2017, 04:17   #23
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

Monohulls fair better on reefs or rocks, sometimes the isue with this condocats are that when they get stuck in a reef any towing or salvage operation result in hulls and keel ripped in pieces,, they need to keep it light as posible then those thin laminates make sense as far they dont touch noting hard...


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Old 01-02-2017, 04:33   #24
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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Reality is most cruising boats last 30-40yrs and the original owner is long gone before the boat is anywhere near that age, so what do they care if eventually, the hull starts to give out decades down the road?


This wasn't a soft grounding, this was beat the tar out of the bottom and not many boats would survive significantly better...even the metal hulled boats.


For all the corporate hatred, they are building a product that survives just fine in the vast majority of cases and if maintained, it will never become a major issue.


Keep in mind by the time you get to that 30-40yrs out, the engines and other systems are likely due for replacement and you reach a point where it is no longer cost effective to retrofit, so the boat will be scrapped regardless of how the hull is holding up.


I'd like to differ a little on that, my boat turns 30 this year and I believe she has at least 10 left in her, there are many, many boats front the 70s out there plying the world and even from the 60's although there were fewer manufactured in that era.
However I will agree that some successful manufacturers still out there are building to a life limit now, not the best boat that they can, and that is not only multi hulls. I believe the model has changed now to one like automobiles, where a new car buyer buys a new car every few years, and the manufacturer does not car about the used car buyer, cause of course they are not selling to them, but the new buyer.
Best way to grow a business is increase sales of course, and if you can get people buying. Anew boat every five years or so as opposed to buying one boat forever, you sell a lot more boats
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Old 01-02-2017, 04:55   #25
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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I'd like to differ a little on that, my boat turns 30 this year and I believe she has at least 10 left in her...
That seems like a pretty short future window. What's that based on? My Valiant is 31 this year and I expect her to to last far longer than 10 more years, provided she gets what she needs maintenance and update wise. I expect the hull to last virtually indefinitely provided it gets good care. I know sea cycles ultimately take their toll on fiberglass, but I think heavier built boats have a much longer horizon before the scrapheap.

I suppose there will come a day when resale value and repowering costs cross each other on the spreadsheet, but repowering will still be cost-effective compared to selling and buying a younger used quality boat.
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Old 01-02-2017, 05:12   #26
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

Yachts are engineered and constructed for the environment they are intended to inhabit, the sea, not the hard stuff around the edges. The sea does not do in many boats but the hard stuff around the edges does. Keep the boats off the hard stuff and they mostly do fine.

Further, the Oak Tree seems much more sturdy than a flimsy reed until a big wind come along. Afterward, the reeds are still standing while the Oak Trees? Not so much. Non?
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Old 01-02-2017, 05:51   #27
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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That seems like a pretty short future window. What's that based on? My Valiant is 31 this year and I expect her to to last far longer than 10 more years, provided she gets what she needs maintenance and update wise. I expect the hull to last virtually indefinitely provided it gets good care. I know sea cycles ultimately take their toll on fiberglass, but I think heavier built boats have a much longer horizon before the scrapheap.

I suppose there will come a day when resale value and repowering costs cross each other on the spreadsheet, but repowering will still be cost-effective compared to selling and buying a younger used quality boat.
By 31yrs, repowering even a top of the line boat...you've already crossed the point where resale value doesn't justify a repower. When you consider the fridge, sails, anchor winch, electrical system, heads, plumbing and other systems that will need to be replaced...it's not even close when you consider resale value. This is the point where you do it because you like projects or have simply fallen in love with "your" boat.

You can keep her running and in perfect shape pretty much indefinitely but you can do that with any boat. Put that same level of effort into the example boat and it will be out there sailing 50-60yrs from now.

When viewed from the manufacturers point of view, the average NEW cruising boat buyer is 50-60yrs old. By 20-30 yrs out, better than 95% will have been sold and left cruising and the resale value will be low enough that it just doesn't matter regarless of being overbuilt or not. There is little reason for the buyer to consider the need for the hull to last 50-60yrs.

Now if you have hulls failing at 5-10yrs, those manufacturers will wash out of the market but hull failures (and running a boat up on the rocks doesn't qualify) is not that common.
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Old 01-02-2017, 05:54   #28
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

One thing is I am not 100% sure it is legal to take images of somebody else's boat and post them on the forum without explicit or implicit indication of obtaining the owner's permit to do so.

This is what they call property release in some countries. Lack of, in OP's case.

Another thing is OP has apparently never seen what happens to boats that grind the reef for a time.

The production method looks about standard of what I have seen on many modern mono and multihulls. This is just how they are built - glass skins over balsa (or foam) core.

Sorry if I sound like bashing the OP, but I actually do a little bit.

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Old 01-02-2017, 05:57   #29
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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That seems like a pretty short future window. What's that based on? My Valiant is 31 this year and I expect her to to last far longer than 10 more years, provided she gets what she needs maintenance and update wise. I expect the hull to last virtually indefinitely provided it gets good care. I know sea cycles ultimately take their toll on fiberglass, but I think heavier built boats have a much longer horizon before the scrapheap.

I suppose there will come a day when resale value and repowering costs cross each other on the spreadsheet, but repowering will still be cost-effective compared to selling and buying a younger used quality boat.

Based on my projected need for Her. I say ten or more years, I expect, hope to be cruising for ten years, maybe more if I'm lucky.

However with most any boat of an advanced age, one major repair bill will kill them, like having to replace a wet core, or storm damage etc.
Only a very few boats are so valuable that even in their advanced age that a large repair refit bill is tenable. People may pay a large sum to save a Swan, but not so likely an old IP 38. So I expect her to last if she is cared for until some really major expense comes up like a fire or storm damage.
However I am sure she will not die of deck or hull rot as so many do.
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Old 01-02-2017, 06:26   #30
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Re: Shocked by hull material catamaran

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By 31yrs, repowering even a top of the line boat...you've already crossed the point where resale value doesn't justify a repower. When you consider the fridge, sails, anchor winch, electrical system, heads, plumbing and other systems that will need to be replaced...it's not even close when you consider resale value.
Again, I differ with your assessment. I believe I can overhaul my Yanmar 4-JHE for likely $5K, but certainly less than $10K. I have in the last three years replaced or installed as new everything on your list and much, much more and while i have not kept track, I believe I have spent less than $30K doing so and I include other things not in your list, like autopliot, SSB, AIS,inverter, battery charger, new Lifeline bank, Radar / Plotter and Solar power, generator and coming soon a watermaker.
My boat would list for about $150K and I would guess would sell for about $120K.
Now to complete the refit I expect to spend honestly close to another $30K, but that includes running and standing rigging, new chainplates, new Bimini and canvas, new Settee cushions and a new Latex Mattress.
So I will have I think about $60K in a complete refit, or about half the value of the boat, but everything will be new, except the hull, mast, winches etc. and the wood interior, which I am told you can't get in a new boat, the old growth teak just doesn't exist anymore.

There is of course a case to where a boat is too far gone to justify pouring money into it, there are acres and acres of yards full of such boats, I've heard them called "fields of dreams".

Here is the thing, an idiot can destroy a very well made boat is a hurry, but if well kept a well built boat's life span exceeds that of the owner. However a poorly built boat will deteriorate no matter how well kept.

One of my toys that I am keeping for after I swallow the anchor is a 1946 Cessna, it turns 71 this year, and I am very comfortable that it is a safe airplane, it is older than I am and I expect someone will still be flying it after I'm put into the ground.
I don't see how a boat if well made is fundamentally any different.


A lot of it is peoples attitudes, many will turn their nose up at the thought of anything "used" they want new, new cars, houses, and of course boats.
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